Pin-TN rankings 1/9

[LocalHero]

17 hours ago, WrestlingGod said:

I agree Cleveland and Bradley 1 and 2. I don’t agree that every other team after that is murky. The next two are pretty obvious too. 

I’m curious after Summit who the other obvious team is. I don’t think it’s a given Bradley beats Summit either. Seems like that will be a close dual!!! 

[cbg]

17 hours ago, Manhole said:

Baylor had prior coach contact with Sturgill and he isn’t sitting out but they hired his coach so I guess hush money talks

Rule is sit out if you competed in tssaa in prior year and also if you had contact with a coach in past 12 months Sturgill was on teams coached by more than one Baylor coach and his coach from heritage is there now and traveling with varsity as a coach but it would be absurd to make Baylor play by the rules

The TSSAA has made it very clear that if you have the money that a few of the elite prep schools in Tennessee have you don’t have to play by the rules and they will not challenge those schools. The facts are the following:  1. Many of the elite private schools in Tennessee have more money than the TSSSAA. 2.  The attorneys for the elite prep schools are often considered the best attorneys in Tennessee and are better than what the TSSAA is able to afford.  3.  The TSSAA and Board of Control could really care less about private schools and if the issues do not involve football or basketball they could really care less. 

This is all about money or the lack thereof.  As an example; what is the TSSAA going to do to a school that receives 100 million dollar donations?  A school that has that much in their endowment could not only retain the very best legal eagles but they would also have the ability to purchase the political influence needed and they could keep prolonging any legal proceedings for years to come.  The result would be the TSSAA would either crumble or file bankruptcy. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by cbg

[WrestlingGod]

8 hours ago, LocalHero said:

I’m curious after Summit who the other obvious team is. I don’t think it’s a given Bradley beats Summit either. Seems like that will be a close dual!!! 

I'd have to say Wilson Central. Next month will be interesting. 

 

I'd also put Blackman right there with Summit and Wilson Central. They're just in a no win situation and will have to beat either Cleveland or Bradley to make it to Franklin in Feb. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by WrestlingGod

[LocalHero]

2 hours ago, WrestlingGod said:

I'd have to say Wilson Central. Next month will be interesting. 

 

I'd also put Blackman right there with Summit and Wilson Central. They're just in a no win situation and will have to beat either Cleveland or Bradley to make it to Franklin in Feb. 

If DB brings a full lineup I believe they will surprise some folks. I don’t think there’s a team in the state that brought in a better freshman class. Add those kids to what they already had and they have improved drastically over last year. Look at the score vs Maryville last year and this year. I don’t believe either team lost much. 

[cowcatcher]

4 hours ago, cbg said:

The TSSAA has made is very clear that if you have the money that a few of the elite prep schools in Tennessee have you don’t have to play by the rules and they will not challenge those schools. The facts are the following:  1. Many of the elite private schools in Tennessee have more money than the TSSSAA. 2.  The attorneys for the elite prep schools are often considered the best attorneys in Tennessee and are better than what the TSSAA is able to afford.  3.  The TSSAA and Board of Control could really care less about private schools and if the issues do not involve football or basketball they could really care less. 

This is all about money or the lack thereof.  As an example; what is the TSSAA going to do to a school that receives 100 million dollar donations?  A school that has that much in their endowment could not only retain the very best legal eagles but they would also have the ability to purchase the political influence needed and they could keep prolonging any legal proceedings for years to come.  The result would be the TSSAA would either crumble or file bankruptcy. 

Great point, cbg. From my time following this message board, you always seem to provide great insight and share intelligent posts. 

To the topic of Cleveland, I would add that they haven't just be handed success on a silver platter. Coach Bosken isn't denying that Mr. Jones has helped the program, but many schools receive help from donors (I admit maybe not to that level). As Coach Bosken noted, they raised $100k this year supposedly that Mr. Jones had nothing to do with. I suspect that type of budget is greater than most if not all high school football teams in the state (including the private schools). BUT that is money they earned from THEIR hard work and commitment (there is no rule against that). Money helps, make no mistake about it, but that is not why Cleveland and Bradley have been so good for so long. It's the buy in from top to bottom that has made them so great. They understand that success starts at the youth level and they've built their programs around that. The coaching aspect is also one of the main drivers of that success. Cleveland and Bradley's youth programs have better coaches than the majority of the high school programs across the state. As the old saying goes, if you built it, they will come, and these programs have done that with the coaches they have had over the years.

 Another thing I thought of that goes to the point that money isn't everything and doesn't always buy success...look at what Montgomery Bell Academy has done in D2 since Simpson's son took over. That program has as much money as any school in the state. You get a young qualified coach in there like they have now and they have been on the rise ever since. Even in the small school classification, it's the teams with the good coaches that attract the top talent. Greeneville (Randy Shelton/Sid Mason), Signal Mtn (Houston Clements/Matthew Cate), Pigeon Forge (legendary Greg Foreman), Soddy Daisy (Ulric Winesburg/Shane Turner), etc. This concept is nothing new and applies to all level of sports. Kids want to play for the coaches they believe give them the best chance to accomplish their goals. If you live in the Chattanooga area, who wouldn't want to wrestle for Coach Knox at Cleveland or Coach Smith at Bradley? They have proven to have the most success, which you can't blame folks for wanting to be a part of.

[Mason422]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:41 AM, Ummmno said:

Well, Science Hill isnt a top 10 team. In order to be a top 10 team you have to beat a top 10 team. 

 

Its really quite basic. 

I wasn’t gonna respond but you saying “it’s really quiet basic” got me. 
 

you don’t necessarily have to beat a top 10 team to be a top ten team. NCAA does it every year and they don’t all wrestle each other.  I don’t know the facts here in regard to where each teams kids are ranked but for sake of argument Look at it this way.  For example; if DB has 4 Number 1 kids, 2 number 3’s etc…. Then you look at the 10th team. How many ranked wrestlers do they have and how does the match ups work? If the 10th team isn’t nearly as loaded it would be easy to justify putting DB in there.  
 

shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss others idea’s just because you believe there is only one way to do it. It’s just not practical for teams in the East to wrestle the teams in the west most of the time. 
 

schedules just won’t allow it. Always more than one way to skin a cat. 

we do this all of the time for individual rankings. Ever who does the rankings has my son at 1 even though he hasn’t wrestled 90% of the TN kids.  By your logic he shouldn’t be the 1 kid. I honestly don’t care where anyone is ranked in the state of TN but it is possible to do it another way. 
 

V/r 

Sid Mason 

[Mason422]

On 1/16/2023 at 2:02 PM, Ummmno said:

Everybody knows BC and Cleveland get more money than any other div 1 school in the state. Its not new news. I wish they'd just come out and say it. Own it. Instead of trying to give other reasons. 

 

Nobody faults them for getting more money. Its just how the chips fell. But dont pretend it doenst exist lol

Money never hurts but that’s not the reason Cleveland is successful.  They have coaches that coach year around.  They travel all over the country finding their kids someone to beat them, they put in the work before school, go to HS practice, then a lot go to club practice. 
 

their feeder program is one if not the best in the state and they always have a stream of kids coming in that have been wrestling for years. 
 

I am in no way associated with Cleveland but for people to always bring up money as the reason they win is just absurd. They win because they commit to their kids, they are very good coaches, and they work their butts off. 
 

People should just stop hating on them and work harder to beat them. Wrestling would be better overall if coaches would stop complaining about Cleveland’s money and just put more time in the wrestling room with quality coaches. 
 

one last point. At least 2 of the coaches in that room wrestled D1. How many other coaches in TN wrestled D1 out side of the private schools?  Not many of any. 
 

Sid Mason

[Ummmno]

9 minutes ago, Mason422 said:

 They have coaches that coach year around.  They travel all over the country finding their kids someone to beat them, they put in the work before school, go to HS practice, then a lot go to club practice. 
 

They have coaches that coach year round because they're paid to do so. Every other club coach I have ever known in my entire life has done it as a volunteer. 

 

Cleveland coaches get paid to be there by their "anonymous donor". 

 

They have more money coming in than any other program in the state. Bar none. This isn't a secret. If other programs had this type of money being "donated" they'd be able to build the same successful programs. 

 

Now, this isn't to take away from the quality of coaches they've brought in. Bosken and Knox are both a needle in a haystack finds. But come on guys, call it what it is. 

[cowcatcher]

5 minutes ago, Ummmno said:

They have coaches that coach year round because they're paid to do so. Every other club coach I have ever known in my entire life has done it as a volunteer. 

 

Cleveland coaches get paid to be there by their "anonymous donor". 

 

They have more money coming in than any other program in the state. Bar none. This isn't a secret. If other programs had this type of money being "donated" they'd be able to build the same successful programs. 

 

Now, this isn't to take away from the quality of coaches they've brought in. Bosken and Knox are both a needle in a haystack finds. But come on guys, call it what it is. 

I'm not even a Cleveland fan, but even if that is true, so what? Good for them! The school, its alumni, donors and community are committed to be good at wrestling. If they want to raise money or have a donor pay a coach, great...the kids benefit and you shouldn't hate on that just because your school isn't as fortunate. I will be rooting for Summit or Bradley to end Cleveland's streak in February, but man, this sounds like pure jealousy...

[Ummmno]

2 minutes ago, cowcatcher said:

I'm not even a Cleveland fan, but even if that is true, so what? Good for them! The school, its alumni, donors and community are committed to be good at wrestling. If they want to raise money or have a donor pay a coach, great...the kids benefit and you shouldn't hate on that just because your school isn't as fortunate. I will be rooting for Summit or Bradley to end Cleveland's streak in February, but man, this sounds like pure jealousy...

Oh its 100% jealousy. But only because the programs I've worked with didn't have these pockets. 

 

But, jealousy isn't spite. I've been very very clear that I do not fault Cleveland for it. Any program in the state would do the same if they had the same backers. They're where they are because of the pride they have in their program. Other schools need to look at what they do as an example. 

 

I hope that nobody took what i said as a slight on the program. They're the best in the state. Hands down. 

[cowcatcher]

17 minutes ago, Ummmno said:

Oh its 100% jealousy. But only because the programs I've worked with didn't have these pockets. 

 

But, jealousy isn't spite. I've been very very clear that I do not fault Cleveland for it. Any program in the state would do the same if they had the same backers. They're where they are because of the pride they have in their program. Other schools need to look at what they do as an example. 

 

I hope that nobody took what i said as a slight on the program. They're the best in the state. Hands down. 

Thank you for your clarifying post and honesty. I can respect that. 

[Mason422]

1 hour ago, Ummmno said:

They have coaches that coach year round because they're paid to do so. Every other club coach I have ever known in my entire life has done it as a volunteer. 

 

Cleveland coaches get paid to be there by their "anonymous donor". 

 

They have more money coming in than any other program in the state. Bar none. This isn't a secret. If other programs had this type of money being "donated" they'd be able to build the same successful programs. 

 

Now, this isn't to take away from the quality of coaches they've brought in. Bosken and Knox are both a needle in a haystack finds. But come on guys, call it what it is. 

90% of clubs in America that has national success cost money to attend the club. My son is no different we have paid club dues for over 10 years and thousands on private lessons.  I am not a wealthy guy by no means but our family sacrifices for my son to have success. So when it’s summer and we want to go in vacation that takes a back seat to Fargo.  
 

I have ran clubs and I will tell you that I wouldn’t do it for free. It takes a ton of time and dedication to get the results that Cleveland has. 
 

In my opinion you are putting way to emphasis on money and not the work that everyone involved in Cleveland puts in. How much money did you fund raise for your favorite program?  Just a prime example of people are jealous with what Cleveland has and they aren’t willing to work for it.  
 

I am saying all of this and I coach at the HS level. Those guys just do an amazing job.