Is this still an issue?

[VolunteerGeneral]

What is JCM, 4A? 1A and 2A are the classes that are being dominated by the privates. The big boys ran their's off a while back, why can't we? I'd think the larger schools would have an easier time of competing with the private schools. The McEwens,and Perry Co's, etc., don't have the money or population to match up with a team that can get whatever they want year in and year out. And before you bring up Collinwood, who knocked them out of the playoffs last year? (CPA, in case you don't remember.)

GregC...you bring up two points.

 

1.money

2.population

 

1. You can`t legislate money...PERIOD! For example JCM competes in baseball against several Shelby County teams. Some of them raise over 70,000 dollars for their baseball budget. JCM raised under 20,000 last year. Is that fair? In other words all schools are different in regards to money raised. JCM can`t control how much money a Germantown raises no more than Perry County can control how much money Trinity Christian raises. And for that matter I`m willing yo bet that JCM raises more money for baseball than some of the inner city schools and rural schools. There is no way you can legislate money.

 

2. This gets back to open zones a school like Milan that can get kids from all over Gibson County has far more population sources than a 2A school that has a closed zone.

 

So why do they just want to split private schools. If money is an unfair advantage then you`d have to limit each class as to how much money each sport team can spend. Is that what you want?

 

If population is the problem then deal with ALL schools that have a population advantage not just private schools otherwise this is just a vendetta against private schools and has nothing to do with trying to make the system fair.

[dandy82]

I would back a multiplier and let the public schools cry all the way home. My point is why punish the private schools that already can't\ don't win in 1a. It's easy to pick the schools that push sports (and not just football).

 

divepix, I believe the home for private schools starts and ends in 3a. But not all private schools need to be in 3a. Since there will be no voluntary moves up, then split.

 

gobigred, I'm still trying to dicpher your post.

 

I understand VolGens point. I don't believe it has any bearing on a vote for a split.He isn't wrong, just has no bearing on the subject at hand, so it comes across as sour grapes. The few private schools remind me of people in political office. Blinded by the power, loving the victory, the domination, using the system to keep the power. Now, the power is challanged. Don't have the votes. Looking for a smokescreen, and there it is....open zoned publics..... hammer the point.... create chaos....who cares if it's a separate issue.... it's just not fair..... we need fairness.... we need fairness.... we need fairness....(while the rural publics take it on the chin)

 

This is why we might as well split. Neither side will tolerate the other. But those few privates (VolGen, you know who they are) have nothing to lose by sitting tight. A split will be the same as a move up. A multiplier will also push up their classification. A majority of private schools are hurt by a multiplier, so, a split is the only logical choice left. Then private schools can divide their divisions by strength, if they like. Or, let some of the private schools pull out of the TSSAA, form their own league, and those privates who wish to play in TSSAA can stay.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Will all private schools benefit with a multiplier???

[OnlineLC]

dandy82,

Most of the small privates that struggle or are non dominant today would probably stay in 1A (eg Nashville Christian, Friendship) even with a multiplier. There would be a mix of the remainder in 2A, 3A and possibly even 4A. I think it would be fair to put all the remaining Privates in 3A and then revisit in 2 years to make some adjustments up or down based solely on their success (or failure) in that time.

[VolunteerGeneral]

Dandy..I don`t believe the public schools have taken an honest look at the entire situation. I have always stated that if there are problems with the current system then let`s identify those problems and respond to them equally throughout the system. Not having a closed zone seems to be the prevalent complaint with private schools, but there are many public schools that enjoy the same luxury. Yet the public schools only seem hellbent on kicking out private schools.It`s as if they don`t care that a school like Milan has done just as well and been just a dominating as USJ (Milan has even won the gold ball a time or two).Milan is and open zoned school and yet nobody seems to care or even question why they are good year in and year out. Even after Coach Tucker left there they still produce great teams. As a fan of JCM, I simply want to know why we think it`s OK for public schools to have the open zones and not the private schools. I don`t mind change as long as we treat everybody the same. I also think overall we`ll hurt the overall quality of Tennessee sports with a split. It takes good teams to push other teams to be better and we`d be much better off if everyone stayed together.

 

This debate shouldn`t be a public/private one , but an open zoned/closed zone debate. Just look at all the open zoned schools at last years Clinic Bowl. We should be asking...When are we going to do something with the schools that can get players from out of their zone(public and private) Then and only then are we really addressing a problem.

[VolunteerGeneral]

LOL Stan!

 

And which observations don`t they agree with?

 

1. Privates have open zones.

2. A lot of public schools have open zones

3. open zones are an advantage for those that have them vs. those that don`t

4. only private schools are being singled out for open zones

 

Those are my basic observations Stan. Which ones don`t they agrre with?

 

Bye Stan

Still waiting on a response to this one.

[BDURHAM]

Posting is an option, not a command. Respond when I want to VolGen.

[itzme]

"Does your statement above mean you can't think listen or respond any more?"

- go big, red

 

by golly, i think you have pegged me with that one.

 

but i really wasnt so much responding to the particular point made by T-gen, as to the tone, attitude, and approach. i dont think it is productive.

 

 

"People who want a split simply do not like private schools. PERIOD! They are bigoted people."

- T-gen

 

i dont know exactly what happened to t-gen when he played at usj, but it seems to have scarred him for life. none-the-less, his assumption that he (and, naturally, those who agree with him) alone has an honestly held opinion is an attitude that eliminates any chance of a favorable outcome.

 

"Actually, I think the split supporters have simply declared victory and are waiting for the outcome in December. It's kind of like democracy"

- itchme

 

no, it isnt kind of like democracy, it is democracy. and the plain truth is that, if, in a democratic process, you make your position so exclusive that the majority falls outside, then you will lose. if you didnt notice, private schools dont have the numbers to win unless they get some public support. doesnt that make it sort of foolish to make blanket attacks on public supporters? instead, if the desire is to keep tenn hs sports unified, it would seem a lot more productive to seek reasons that it would be to everyone's benefit to find a solution other than a split. and i mean something more compelling than "i am smart and you are stupid", or "if we dont win all the championships, then they wont mean anything". as a PUBLIC coach who would rather not see a split, i feel like the most effective statements encouraging a split have come from the private supporters. why shouldnt i get irritated with you?

sure, there have been plenty of outrageous attacks on privates by publics. sure, it is only human nature to respond in anger. but if we value our goals above indulging our emotional responses, then we sometimes have to forego that knee jerk retort, much less, continuous personal attacks.

despite what you might think, public coaches were not stamped out of some mold. they hold (or held) diverse opinions on the issues addressed here. they also have some legitimate concerns about how things are currently structured. failing to recognize the legitimacy of their concerns, adopting an attitude of arrogant sarcasm (alternating with self-pity), and failing to seek any sort of compromise dooms a minority to failure in the democratic process.

with the choices currently available, i would vote for a split. and i am ON YOUR SIDE. it would seem that the smart thing to do is to seek alternatives that address the real underlying problems with our classification system, not to try and cling to it as is.

things are going to change.

I understand it is democracy. Read the entire quote, and you will understnd my point...

 

"Actually, I think the split supporters have simply declared victory and are waiting for the outcome in December. It's kind of like democracy...people get the government they deserve (think California) and they also get the high school athletics they deserve (think Tennessee). "

 

I have given up arguing...I think it's a done deal. I just think it's sad.

[gobigred]

I understand VolGens point. I don't believe it has any bearing on a vote for a split.He isn't wrong, just has no bearing on the subject at hand, so it comes across as sour grapes.

 

Please help me understand why open zoned public school issue is not on point here if the true goal of the public coaches is to level the playing field. Your statement makes it sound even more like the goal is to split period. Is the intended goal really to fix the inequity problems of the lower divisions or is it to avoid competion with private schools?

 

Don't have the votes. Looking for a smokescreen, and there it is....open zoned publics..... hammer the point.... create chaos....who cares if it's a separate issue.... it's just not fair..... we need fairness.... we need fairness....

we need fairness....(while the rural publics take it on the chin)

 

I have consistently agreed that rural publics need help. That is why I support a multiplier for private and open zoned publics.

 

Or, let some of the private schools pull out of the TSSAA, form their own league, and those privates who wish to play in TSSAA can stay.

 

Again, I have said that some of the small 1A Christian schools would benefit by joining the independent Christian School conference that includes schools like College Heights in Gallatin and Radnor Baptist in Nashville.

 

I don't really think the publics would want the big privates to form an association that is independent of the TSSAA. Can you imagine the potential ramifications of unrestricted recruiting in that scenario?

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Will all private schools benefit with a multiplier???

 

No, but not all public schools will benefit from a complete public/private split either, particularly if the number of classifications is reduced after the split takes place. There is no perfect solution that will make everyone a championship contender.

[926]

GEEEEZZZZZ!

 

Have 4 classes instead of 5.

 

Move privates that are located within 50 driving miles of the center of metropolitan areas with populations greater than 100,000 to 3A and 4A. Most 1A and 2A privates are competitively at the higher classification levels, anyway. This setup doesn't hurt the odd private school which competes at their current enrollment level, and doesn't have the luxury of the large population from which to draw.

 

 

Create a branch of the TSSAA that deals with the issue of illegal public school transfers, and give them the authority to rain down on illegal transfers, the coaches who look the other way, and the programs which support them. The elimination of these illegal transfers is crucial to this setup's success...as is the elimination of the temptation for the parties involved. Read as...loss of eligibility to participate in any sports for a predetermined length of time for the student and the school. Harsh, but necessary.

 

 

This system will still exclude the DII schools who probably prefer the current setup, anyway. I wish there was a way to bring these schools back, but I don't see it happening.

 

I'm sure there's a couple of patrons who will delve into an essay on why I'm an idiot (I particularly like the ones who literally disect the post(s) of their opponent), buy this seems like a pretty good setup to me.

[Indian]

There would be no need to drop from 5 classes to 4, it's only 16 1A football teams and 2 2A teams that would be going to Division II. In 1A around here, Bledsoe and maybe Polk would likely replace Boyd-Buchanan, and McMinn Central might drop to 2A to replace Polk in the area region. That's not a huge amount of added travel, especially when some teams already have to go far in non-region games. The major difference for most teams would be not playing private schools in the postseason. And as I've said here, a total split would help a team like St Andrew's that has to travel from Knoxville to Memphis playing in Division II.

[VolunteerGeneral]

Posting is an option, not a command. Respond when I want to VolGen.

Yes you are right Stan...anyone can make a post, but it takes some cerebral effort to respond to rebuttal.

 

1. Privates have open zones.

2. A lot of public schools have open zones

3. open zones are an advantage for those that have them vs. those that don`t

4. only private schools are being singled out for open zones

 

Those are my basic observations Stan. Which ones don`t they agree with?

[BDURHAM]

Yes you are right Stan...anyone can make a post, but it takes some cerebral effort to respond to rebuttal.

 

1. Privates have open zones.

2. A lot of public schools have open zones

3. open zones are an advantage for those that have them vs. those that don`t

4. only private schools are being singled out for open zones

 

Those are my basic observations Stan. Which ones don`t they agree with?

Vol Gen:

 

Keep talking to yourself. You don't want answers. You don't want a debate. You want to talk.

 

Keep talking.

Edited September 19, 2003 by StanTrott