2012 pre-season discussion, Transfers, Coaching changes and Rumors

[slingshot]

Great post and comparison. I admire the thought process but its not reality. What people dont understand is this. ALL of the top programs have kids that came to that program because of its wrestling program. ALL of them, public and private. They built something people want to be a part of. I can go down a list of kids at public schools that moved into that area to wrestle at that particular school that is a mile long. Does that mean they were recruited? No, it does not. It means that those parents put their kids in the best place for their success. Its much like Mitch Brunner posted that I think went over the head of some people. He compared this to the coaches coaching at schools other than where they grew up at . Why are these coaches not where they grew up wrestling? Because they are doing whats best for them and their families. Can wrestlers not do the same? In fact this isnt a wrestling specefic problem. Its in all sports. Do you really thing Signal Mtn is winning football games with kids all from Signal mtn? have you ever seen Signal mtns youth and middle school sports? I promise you kids are moving there because they want to play football there. Lets look at Cleveland for example, Debien (florida), Taylor (Mcminn), Austin Oliver (Mcminn), Aaron Oliver (mcminn), Ethan West (georgia). Thats just the ones I know of. Were they recruited? Should they have to wretle in another division because they have an unfair advantage? No, they went there because they wanted to wrestle there. This is America, we are supposed to be free the last time I checked. You like to make comparisons so here is one that is a little more accurate. Do you let people dictate to you where you work because its in close proximity to your work? Or do you work where you want to ? One that provides you and your family the best opportunity? Imagine the government telling you, " I know you went to school for years, have 40,000 in student loans, but we want you to work at this fruit stand on the corner of your street because its in your zone". Would that be fair to you? Thats the same thing with these wrestlers and all athletes. They work their butts off, their parents spend untold amounts of money and time while they are growing up and the kids have earned the right to wrestle where they want to. If you dont like it, hire a better coach, build a better program, build better facilities, raise your academic standards, and maybe more people will want to wrestle for you. Thats what these other institutions have done. They did it with their time, money and hard work. The government didnt do it for them. In fact while they were busy doing those things for their school they were also paying taxes that go to your school. This is wrestling, its not checkers. You are probably one of those who thinks we should have yet another division in Tn, one of those who thinks everyone should win. Life is full of winners and losers, you chose which one you want to be.^{Why am I not at all surprised by your post? Because it is just so typical of the way most of us process thought. Try to tell a democrat that he should be a republican...tell a christian that he should become a muslim...tell a dog lover to trade for a cat...Not goona happen. We usually choose our paths based on which side of the fence we live on and what we've had fed to us by those around us. And once those paths are chosen, we well stick with our "team" regardless. We're just spinning our wheels here. No comporomise, no middle ground...Rather than actually entertaining and considering another point of view, we quickly begin our rebuttal...and yes, I'm as guilty of this as I feel you are........Still think you're wrong, though}

[mocs2011]

Great post and comparison. I admire the thought process but its not reality. What people dont understand is this. ALL of the top programs have kids that came to that program because of its wrestling program. ALL of them, public and private. They built something people want to be a part of. I can go down a list of kids at public schools that moved into that area to wrestle at that particular school that is a mile long. Does that mean they were recruited? No, it does not. It means that those parents put their kids in the best place for their success. Its much like Mitch Brunner posted that I think went over the head of some people. He compared this to the coaches coaching at schools other than where they grew up at . Why are these coaches not where they grew up wrestling? Because they are doing whats best for them and their families. Can wrestlers not do the same? In fact this isnt a wrestling specefic problem. Its in all sports. Do you really thing Signal Mtn is winning football games with kids all from Signal mtn? have you ever seen Signal mtns youth and middle school sports? I promise you kids are moving there because they want to play football there. Lets look at Cleveland for example, Debien (florida), Taylor (Mcminn), Austin Oliver (Mcminn), Aaron Oliver (mcminn), Ethan West (georgia). Thats just the ones I know of. Were they recruited? Should they have to wretle in another division because they have an unfair advantage? No, they went there because they wanted to wrestle there. This is America, we are supposed to be free the last time I checked. You like to make comparisons so here is one that is a little more accurate. Do you let people dictate to you where you work because its in close proximity to your work? Or do you work where you want to ? One that provides you and your family the best opportunity? Imagine the government telling you, " I know you went to school for years, have 40,000 in student loans, but we want you to work at this fruit stand on the corner of your street because its in your zone". Would that be fair to you? Thats the same thing with these wrestlers and all athletes. They work their butts off, their parents spend untold amounts of money and time while they are growing up and the kids have earned the right to wrestle where they want to. If you dont like it, hire a better coach, build a better program, build better facilities, raise your academic standards, and maybe more people will want to wrestle for you. Thats what these other institutions have done. They did it with their time, money and hard work. The government didnt do it for them. In fact while they were busy doing those things for their school they were also paying taxes that go to your school. This is wrestling, its not checkers. You are probably one of those who thinks we should have yet another division in Tn, one of those who thinks everyone should win. Life is full of winners and losers, you chose which one you want to be.

 

 

Yes, but not everyone can attract from all over the state and region because their not boarding schools. Also no one else can go recruit someone else's state champions from last year other than the boarding schools and put them right on the mat. Yes, great programs attract good wrestlers, fine, but the parents have to be in their school district or move close enough to drive them everyday. The boarders get them from other cities, hundreds of miles away and from other states. No comparison. And, yes, the boarding schools even have students that parents are in other countries. They aren't wrestlers, but do attend these schools. How silly does it have to get? Sorry, if the bubbles bursting, but in no way is it a fair contest or level playing field. That is the same conclusion that many other states have come to.

 

The real question is knowing this and wanting to "seek out the best competition", why haven't they taken it to the prep nationals? Because they would not be successful? They really aren't preparing their wrestlers for D1 colleges by hanging around wrestling TN public and non-boarding schools? A very small percentage of their seniors are being successful at a national level. If I were paying that much, I would want more. Slingshot has it right above. Every wrestler you named, their parents live within the school district that they compete within. Not the case for Holloway, Hayes brothers, Robinson, Dendy, Brunner, Bell, Hussein and on and on. You have to respect Baylor as an outstanding school, but the TSSAA needs to take away their unfair recruiting rule and until they get out and compete against the big boarding schools, its kind of hollow.

[cbg]

The best way to get back at a school you feel is taking advantage of a situation is to beat them head to head. Why not put D1 & D2 back together for one 32 man bracket, double elimination state tournament with no team score. If student/athletes are able to see that it gives them no wrestling advantage to attend Baylor they may elect to stay at their local school.

Edited September 2, 2012 by cbg

[Sommers]

Not the case for Holloway, Hayes brothers, Robinson, Dendy, Brunner, Bell, Hussein and on and on. You have to respect Baylor as an outstanding school, but the TSSAA needs to take away their unfair recruiting rule and until they get out and compete against the big boarding schools, its kind of hollow.

 

you said no one "outside of the country?" some years ago, wasnt there a Hussein... i believe on mansons team from the middle east that was a utter beast, won the state or made the finals and never wrestled? is there a younger brother now?

[mocs2011]

The best way to get back at a school you feel is taking advantage of a situation is to beat them head to head. Why not put D1 & D2 back together for one 32 man bracket, double elimination state tournament with no team score. If student/athletes are able to see that it gives them no wrestling advantage to attend Baylor they may elect to stay at their local school.

 

The idea of putting D1 and D2 together works. just boot the boarding schools first. If I recall, they were a big part of the split to start off with. Let them improve and go compete with Blair and other boarding schools that have appropriately been shown the curb by their state high school organizations.

[CupCake]

Yes we need bcb back. Its hard being one of only a few with any common sense on here. Cupcake, you have been through both public and private, whats your thoughts on this and also having the ability to chose where your son wrestles.

 

 

As far as private vs public,,,, no comparison, period. Baylor (for example) is such an amazing place on several levels, I was actually jealous every time I dropped my son off,,, and I hated going to school. Does a kid have to go there to be or do amazing things?,,,of course not, that’s ridiculous,,,Pat Welsh’s kids are living proof of that,,,and Dr Popp and ‘The Sleeping Giant†Pat Murphy were other fine examples. But, if you want to talk about the rule,, and not the exception,, no contest, period. But private school isn’t for everyone,,,nor does going to a private school make one a better person (and I know all of us know that). I will close on this topic by saying this,,,,the key word in my mind is to ‘thrive’.

 

I don’t know Tate (but I have always loved watching him wrestle),,,and if I was his dad (regardless of the situation),,,I would do everything in my power to ensure that ‘race horse’ was trained, maintained and able to thrive in the best stable possible/available. Sounds like that’s exactly what they are doing

 

Transfers: “Build it and they will come!†This is America and you do the best you can with what you have and try to make a better life,,,and or give your kids every opportunity you had,,, or in most cases didn’t have. And you don't let people stand in your way or worry about what they think as long as you as a family are doing what you know to be the best you can (given the scenario).

 

Not that I’m proud of it, but all 3 generations of the Deckelman family have been impacted by this very topic:My father transferred after his father died to the best school in the city,,,as I’m sure my grandmother only wanted the very best for her son during a horrible time for their family and our country. The transfer was not an issue until late in the season when it was clear no team could stop my father,, and so if they couldn’t stop him on the field they would find another way. My dad was an honor student and all state in 3 sports setting a state record in shot-put only to break it the next year by 10 feet; later turned down a semi pro football offer (before there was pro) to attend Wake Forest as a running back, only to leave there because of all the issues he had being Jewish in NC in 1937; then later serve in WW II; and then started and owned his own business up until the week he died. First generation Russian American and all he ever wanted to do was thrive,,but unfortunately there was and always will be those who stand in the way. So why am I saying all this? Because the main thing he is remembered for is being part of one of the most incredible coaching decisions/ high school football games I have ever heard of (plus I wanted to brag a bit on my dad). Like my father, I transferred in high school twice as a result of his death, and was forced to sit out a year,,,only to return 2 years later and be deemed eligible? Go figure. Unfortunately; my son too has had to transfer, and I’m so thankful the rules didn’t interrupt his ability to relocate and thrive,,plus I’m alive still (but in Iraq so maybe I should have held off on that cute comment, jk) .

 

Of course this is a topic near and dear to my heart and even though I could write a book on this subject alone,,, I know I have likely said too much. With that, let me say one last thing. Being a kid in high school and relocating isn’t a walk in the park; add facing your old team-friends and fans; then in most cases, add the reason for the move in the first place. No team is happy to lose a star athlete, yet preventing a kid from having a fresh start and an opportunity to recover isn't the right thing to do. Did I mention my dad played a little hand ball later in life with Brooks Robinson too .

 

Disclaimer: I clearly have a bias opinion

 

Sorry, just realized the link below didn't tell what actually happened. Short version: The coach was faced with not playing my father the final game of the season and winning the championship;,,, or play him and forfeit the championship. He played him,,,they won,,,and almost 20,000 fans were there. Pretty cool. A man, a coach that would do that,,,unheard of!!!!

 

Baltimore City College football - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_City_College_footballShare

The Baltimore City College football team, known as the "Knights", or formerly, the "Collegians" or ... The 1936 team won all nine of its games, but was stripped of the MSA title when one of running back Arthur Deckelman was ruled ineligible.

 

 

CC,,,sends...

Edited September 2, 2012 by CupCake

[chattanoogachoker]

Yes, but not everyone can attract from all over the state and region because their not boarding schools. Also no one else can go recruit someone else's state champions from last year other than the boarding schools and put them right on the mat. Yes, great programs attract good wrestlers, fine, but the parents have to be in their school district or move close enough to drive them everyday. The boarders get them from other cities, hundreds of miles away and from other states. No comparison. And, yes, the boarding schools even have students that parents are in other countries. They aren't wrestlers, but do attend these schools. How silly does it have to get? Sorry, if the bubbles bursting, but in no way is it a fair contest or level playing field. That is the same conclusion that many other states have come to.

 

The real question is knowing this and wanting to "seek out the best competition", why haven't they taken it to the prep nationals? Because they would not be successful? They really aren't preparing their wrestlers for D1 colleges by hanging around wrestling TN public and non-boarding schools? A very small percentage of their seniors are being successful at a national level. If I were paying that much, I would want more. Slingshot has it right above. Every wrestler you named, their parents live within the school district that they compete within. Not the case for Holloway, Hayes brothers, Robinson, Dendy, Brunner, Bell, Hussein and on and on. You have to respect Baylor as an outstanding school, but the TSSAA needs to take away their unfair recruiting rule and until they get out and compete against the big boarding schools, its kind of hollow.

 

You are ridiculous and Im not even a private school guy. I just dont like people who cry like a baby and actually are wrong in their comments but they keep repeating their mistaken views so much people actually believe them. Where to start with your idiot statements? I called one of the Red Leggers parents to verify my thoughts. Holloway doesnt board. Dendy doesnt board. Hussein had never wrestled a day in his life before going to Baylor. Because he turned out to be a good wrestler means they somehow had some psychic insight and new this? They didnt go out and recruit someones state champions. Do you really believe that? Did you not read the post where they said Brunner wanted to go to Baylor long before winning the d1 state? He actually applied and went through the process and was accepted before going to high school? Due to the fact that he grew up in Tullahoma, his mom was married to the wrestling coach at Tullahoma and the fact that he was a freshman they were nervous about him going off to board. He then made the decesion himself to attend Baylor and had to talk his parents into letting him. Are you suggesting Tate Robinson was lured to Baylor ? If my information is correct he left Cbhs and was actually attending a school in Mo before his parents contacted Baylor. Did Baylor use some Jedi mind tricks to make the situation happen the way it did at Cbhs with Tate? You make excuses and believe only what you want to believe. We are all dying to know what school you are with as its ben asked before. Are you afraid of some skeletons you dont want aired? Also, as far as your statement above about all the public school kids living with their parents in the school zones they attend is about as incorrect as it gets. You have no idea what goes on at the top schools in this state by that comment. Im not going to call out kids but there are multiple kids who lived with other parents and coaches the last few years so they could attend the schools of their choice. If you dont believe that then you are as misinformed as you sound. Also, the person I spoke with whos kid used to wrestle at Baylor stated the costs was over $40,000 a year. the majority of the boarders were affluent and would have simply moved to Chattanooga had the boarding option not been available so it wouldnt have made any difference. In fact it would have been cheaper for the parents in the majority of the cases. I know in your view on things you think they are all going there for free but from my discussions and people I know from there this isnt the case.

[chattanoogachoker]

As far as private vs public,,,, no comparison, period. Baylor (for example) is such an amazing place on several levels, I was actually jealous every time I dropped my son off,,, and I hated going to school. Does a kid have to go there to be or do amazing things?,,,of course not, that’s ridiculous,,,Pat Welsh’s kids are living proof of that,,,and Dr Popp and ‘The Sleeping Giant†Pat Murphy were other fine examples. But, if you want to talk about the rule,, and not the exception,, no contest, period. But private school isn’t for everyone,,,nor does going to a private school make one a better person (and I know all of us know that). I will close on this topic by saying this,,,,the key word in my mind is to ‘thrive’.

 

I don’t know Tate (but I have always loved watching him wrestle),,,and if I was his dad (regardless of the situation),,,I would do everything in my power to ensure that ‘race horse’ was trained, maintained and able to thrive in the best stable possible/available. Sounds like that’s exactly what they are doing

 

Transfers: “Build it and they will come!†This is America and you do the best you can with what you have and try to make a better life,,,and or give your kids every opportunity you had,,, or in most cases didn’t have. And you don't let people stand in your way or worry about what they think as long as you as a family are doing what you know to be the best you can given the scenario.

 

Not that I’m proud of it, but all 3 generations of the Deckelman family have been impacted by this very topic:My father transferred after his father died to the best school in the city,,,as I’m sure my grandmother only wanted the very best for her son during a horrible time for their family and our country. The transfer was not an issue until late in the season when it was clear no team could stop my father,, and so if they couldn’t stop him on the field they would find another way. My dad was an honor student and all state in 3 sports setting a state record in shot-put only to break it the next year by 10 feet; later turned down a semi pro football offer (before there was pro) to attend Wake Forrest as a running back, only to leave there because of all the issues he had being Jewish in NC in 1937; then later serve in WW II; and then started and owned his own business up until the week he died. First generation Russian American and all he ever wanted to do was thrive,,but unfortunately there was and always will be those who stand in the way. So why am I saying all this? Because the main thing he is remembered for is being part of one of the most incredible coaching decisions/ high school football games I have ever heard of (plus I wanted to brag a bit on my dad). Like my father, I transferred in high school twice as a result of his death, and was forced to sit out a year,,,only to return 2 years later and be deemed eligible? Go figure. Unfortunately; my son too has had to transfer, and I’m so thankful the rules didn’t interrupt his ability to relocate and thrive,,plus I’m alive still (but in Iraq so maybe I should have held off on that cute comment, jk) .

 

Of course this is a topic near and dear to my heart and even though I could write a book on this subject alone,,, I know I have likely said too much. With that, let me say one last thing. Being a kid in high school and relocating isn’t a walk in the park; add facing your old team-friends and fans; then in most cases, add the reason for the move in the first place. No team is happy to lose a star athlete, yet preventing a kid from having a fresh start and an opportunity to recover isn't the right thing to do. Did I mention my dad played a little hand ball later in life with Brooks Robinson too .

 

Disclaimer: I clearly have a bias opinion

 

Baltimore City College football - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_City_College_footballShare

The Baltimore City College football team, known as the "Knights", or formerly, the "Collegians" or ... The 1936 team won all nine of its games, but was stripped of the MSA title when one of running back Arthur Deckelman was ruled ineligible.

 

 

CC,,,sends...

 

Good post Cupcake on someone who has been on both sides and actually knows what they are talking about.

[cbg]

The idea of putting D1 and D2 together works. just boot the boarding schools first. If I recall, they were a big part of the split to start off with. Let them improve and go compete with Blair and other boarding schools that have appropriately been shown the curb by their state high school organizations.

The idea of putting D1 and D2 together works. just boot the boarding schools first. If I recall, they were a big part of the split to start off with. Let them improve and go compete with Blair and other boarding schools that have appropriately been shown the curb by their state high school organizations.

If you are not going to keep a team score what is the problem? Do you feel that the boarding schools have better coaching? Do you not want your team to wrestle the best competition possible? I have never been associated with a boarding school in any way but by refusing to compete against them you may a well tell your wrestlers that the boarding school kids are superior in talent and I for one refuse to go down that road.

[slingshot]

If you are not going to keep a team score what is the problem? Do you feel that the boarding schools have better coaching? Do you not want your team to wrestle the best competition possible? I have never been associated with a boarding school in any way but by refusing to compete against them you may a well tell your wrestlers that the boarding school kids are superior in talent and I for one refuse to go down that road

Coaching?? Really??... Great facilities and coaches are obvious advantage in any athletic activity.. However, anyone who has ever coached will tell you that the greatest gift he can receive is a room-full of Tough Competitors. They set the tone for the room, lead with a great example, provide great competition for other studs, maintain a high level of intensity (or be crushed ), and show the next generation of studs (JV) what being a Champion looks like everyday. There is NO substitute for the intensity and technique that is at a high level in that practice room every day. THIS is the advantage of these schools. The ability to take the quality wrestlers that you already have, then sprinkle in a handful (or two) of transfer studs, and voila,...Tough practice room,..everyday!

Several years ago, I remember Baylor's X-country team.. Already tough as heck from the year before, they "picked up" the Individual State Champion from Alabama, and a National Triathlon Jr. Champion for another Country! Great facilities and Coaching? Yes... But the ability to engineer a higher level of practice partners from across the State, Country .. and World? PRICELESS!

[Sommers]

Im a democrat. you do not have to be a republican just because you live in tennessee. its america and its ok. If my son was in high school, i would do everything i could to get matches with tate robinson or brandon brunner. thats how you get better. I guess if you have the mindset that after high school, your wrestling career is over, one might try to run or hide behind excuses but what are you teaching your kids? maybe its just me but i thought the mindset was wrestle anyone you can everytime you are able to. If there are any coaches or parents out there reading these posts that have young wrestlers: I suggest you expose them to the national scene early on. I believe it will put a little perspective on things for you. its pretty cool cruising down the bracket and seeing states and not schools. check it out.

I bet you're for five divisions, aren't you?!?

[CupCake]

Great examples! The realities that made other states push the boarding schools out of their high school associations. We have a STATE tournament not a national tournament.

 

Cupcake has a good story above, but unfortunately the reasons provided are not the most common cause of high school transfers. I also attended multiple high schools, public and private, but that's just one person's experiences and opinion. Many times a young man develops more character by sticking it out and finishing where they started, versus going to the highest bidder after experiencing a little success. Due to the money involved you see alot of this in high school basketball, some in football, and based on my experience as many young man are ruined as helped by transfering from their original high school where they were experiencing success. Per the parents, the athlete was not playing the right position, getting the ball handed to them enough, getting enough national exposure, we have all seen this. You could make a long list of these situations and often the athletes did not even want to make the change and ultimately suffers.

 

Sommers appears to be trying to distract from the topic by claiming someone wants 5 divisions. No, two are more than sufficient, one would be better, just get rid of the boarders that are doing their own thing like getting athletes from other countries...lol. Calling for rules that are equal for all. No special rules for certain schools--that's the American way!

 

I didn't address your specific issue (several topics blending together on here),,,,and my story was just a bias opinion / food for thought,,as I stated (my therapist said I should be more open with my feelings,,,doctors orders),,...But I will now address this boarding thing,,, I think if you want fair, equal, and the American way,,,you should at least even the playing field by letting folks on here know who you are,,, and/ or what team you are associated with? People may feel your pain, connect and/or better understand you,,,if they know who you are,,, and where you are coming from.,, Help us help you! What D2 school needs Baylor to leave to make things fair? At the end of the day that is what you are saying, so just answer that question and we can finally have a fair discussion....That's the American way,,,just kidding,,,but I love saying it,,,sounds cool! But seriously,,it is the American way!

 

Question: Wasn't the non-boarding CB's nationally ranked last year? Or is CB a boarding school and part of this problem?

Disclaimer: I actually like CB and really like their head coach a bunch,,,fact is if you attend Baylor you have to sign a 7 year contract to be, anti-Cbrothers, in any public forum. It's a legal document,,,I've seen it,,,and I have 2 more years left on my contract

 

CC,,,sends...

Edited September 3, 2012 by CupCake