Interesting article on classification appeal

[Swipes]

16 minutes ago, RichyRich said:

I Just know it's not remotely close to Howard's diversity.  Tell me you know nothing about Howard's without telling me you know nothing about Howard. 

Learn what Diversity means and come back to me.......

[FargoStrut]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:37 AM, oridgecat said:

West High in Knoxville has students from 58 countries speaking a total of 81 languages, hasn't hurt football there.  

Figured I would join and add to our stats discussion since I used to live a few miles from Knox West (granted it was 20 yrs ago) and worked on Antioch Pk (actually right in front of Glencliff HS) yesterday and today. I havent even seen or drove by West HS in abt 5 or 6 yrs but I found it hard to believe that its ANYWHERE CLOSE to as diverse as Glencliff. There may be several kids who are all from many different countries but Glencliff HS is almost an entire high school full of kids whose parents were not born in this country. I decided to do a little research for myself and this is what I found.

West HS

63% White, 18% Black, 11% Hispanic, 6% Bi-racial, 2% Asian

Glencliff HS

61% Hispanic, 19% Black, 15% White, 4% Asian, 1% Bi-racial

West HS proficiency as of 2018/2019

Math- 16% (bottom 50% of state) Reading- 53% (top 20% of state)

Glencliff HS proficiency as of 2018/2019

**Math- 5% (also bottom 50% of state)

** Reading- 9% (bottom 50% of state)

**2018/2019 State average for reading proficiency was 35% and math was 39%.

Free or discounted lunch: West HS- 34.3%  Glencliff HS- 75.7%

Graduation rate for West HS was 91%  (bottom 50% for our state) while Glencliff was either 61% or 75% depending on the site (obviously either way would be bottom half of state as well).

Average ACT score for West HS was 23 while average ACT score for Glencliff was either 15 or 20 depending on the site (I found it odd at such a discrepancy and both were round numbers).

ACT participation at West was 89% while being 83% at Glencliff.

West HS was ranked as 76th out of 358 Tn high schools while Glencliff was ranked 324th out of 358.

Without a doubt, both schools are diverse. However, the similarities between these 2 schools ends with said diversity. Without even seeing West HS in 5 or 6 yrs, I'm fairly certain that the community support for these two vastly different high schools is as different as the populations that make up each school.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by FargoStrut
Typo

[tradertwo]

There's some pretty interesting material posted in this thread, but for the life of me I can't wrap my head around what any of it has anything to do with which classification they're in. X number of students places them in classification Y... end of discussion. Sort of reminds me of the "woke" culture ideology that (thankfully) most people are finally seeing for what it is and the thought process behind it. I'm not pigeon-holing any culture, but since it has already been brought up have they requested a handicap for the soccer teams? There's a simple formula that's generally fair for everyone while keeping opinion and emotion out of the process... list schools in order of enrollment and divide them evenly into X number of classifications... how is that not fair for everyone?

[RichyRich]

5 hours ago, Swipes said:

Learn what Diversity means and come back to me.......

I know what it means and if you knew what you were talking about then youd know the situation at both schools are significantly different west sports. But we were talking about the minority( minority in the state of Tennessee) population. So stop trying wiggle in the actual definition like that's what you actually meant at all. It has nothing to do with being woke either I just posted demographics bc you claimed  it was more "diverse" were talking the actual number  of students who are a minority to this country. I don't know why your trying to act like we were talking about anything different. And then secondly you got immediately defensive I know people from both schools, I just simply  said maybe Howard should play an independent schedule based off perform not bc a x amount of certain race goes there, that was someone else. If white county can play a independent schedule I don't see the big deal about Howard doing it either for 2 seasons. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by RichyRich

[t-mac]

Nate is right, nobody wants to play for coach Mafet.  He was on the previous staff and none of those guys returned when he got the job because they knew how it would be.  Then he has had staff leave him and go to brainerd because he is hard to work with.  he has almost coached at howard 10 years and not 1 former player comes to his defense

[Swipes]

6 hours ago, RichyRich said:

I know what it means and if you knew what you were talking about then youd know the situation at both schools are significantly different west sports. But we were talking about the minority( minority in the state of Tennessee) population. So stop trying wiggle in the actual definition like that's what you actually meant at all. It has nothing to do with being woke either I just posted demographics bc you claimed  it was more "diverse" were talking the actual number  of students who are a minority to this country. I don't know why your trying to act like we were talking about anything different. And then secondly you got immediately defensive I know people from both schools, I just simply  said maybe Howard should play an independent schedule based off perform not bc a x amount of certain race goes there, that was someone else. If white county can play a independent schedule I don't see the big deal about Howard doing it either for 2 seasons. 

First you don’t know what it means once again or you wouldn’t  have used the word . Then tell me I tried to wiggle on the “actual” definition (well no crap I had to because you kept thinking diverse was the same thing as having more of a minority population, two different things)  I never once said that the situation at Howard and West were the same just that in fact West is more Diverse ( which is a true statement by even your own stats).  I would agree that Howard has more of a Minority student population than West but that’s not what was stated.  
 

The first post in this entire thread doesn’t talk about because they are losing game they should move down it goes straight to that Minority population being at the school and not playing football but soccer instead. You commented back to him they should play a non region schedule to a comment about Minorities at the school not the Wins and Loses, so get your facts straight.  I could see the TSSAA giving Howard a break and moving them down if it’s truly because of wins and loses but not because they have a higher minority population (that is very very slippery slope to say the least) like this article is claiming.  So instead of talking about minorities maybe talk about the actual wins and loses 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Swipes

[WestHigh4Life]

On 11/21/2022 at 2:21 PM, RichyRich said:

West high isn't remotely as diverse as Howard.  

 

West High has been as diverse a school in the area as far back as I can remember. Its both diverse culturally and financially with the different students that attend.

[WestHigh4Life]

9 hours ago, FargoStrut said:

Figured I would join and add to our stats discussion since I used to live a few miles from Knox West (granted it was 20 yrs ago) and worked on Antioch Pk (actually right in front of Glencliff HS) yesterday and today. I havent even seen or drove by West HS in abt 5 or 6 yrs but I found it hard to believe that its ANYWHERE CLOSE to as diverse as Glencliff. There may be several kids who are all from many different countries but Glencliff HS is almost an entire high school full of kids whose parents were not born in this country. I decided to do a little research for myself and this is what I found.

West HS

63% White, 18% Black, 11% Hispanic, 6% Bi-racial, 2% Asian

Glencliff HS

61% Hispanic, 19% Black, 15% White, 4% Asian, 1% Bi-racial

West HS proficiency as of 2018/2019

Math- 16% (bottom 50% of state) Reading- 53% (top 20% of state)

Glencliff HS proficiency as of 2018/2019

**Math- 5% (also bottom 50% of state)

** Reading- 9% (bottom 50% of state)

**2018/2019 State average for reading proficiency was 35% and math was 39%.

Free or discounted lunch: West HS- 34.3%  Glencliff HS- 75.7%

Graduation rate for West HS was 91%  (bottom 50% for our state) while Glencliff was either 61% or 75% depending on the site (obviously either way would be bottom half of state as well).

Average ACT score for West HS was 23 while average ACT score for Glencliff was either 15 or 20 depending on the site (I found it odd at such a discrepancy and both were round numbers).

ACT participation at West was 89% while being 83% at Glencliff.

West HS was ranked as 76th out of 358 Tn high schools while Glencliff was ranked 324th out of 358.

Without a doubt, both schools are diverse. However, the similarities between these 2 schools ends with said diversity. Without even seeing West HS in 5 or 6 yrs, I'm fairly certain that the community support for these two vastly different high schools is as different as the populations that make up each school.

 

 

Very good numbers and facts to back up the argument between Glencliff and West.

However comparing a Nashville school to a Knoxville school in terms of diversity might be a little lopsided. Most teachers that teach in Davidson County have to have their teacher licensure as well as an English as a Second Language Endorsement on their licensure to teach due to the diverse population in many of their schools...Knoxville's diverse population has grown over the years but is not yet at the level to where teachers are required to get an ESL Endorsement on their teaching licensure.

I do feel for schools like Glencliff and wouldnt be surprised if that happens at more schools as the population increases across the state. You would think the TSSAA would take that in account when processing number of students but I guess they dont.

[Indian]

Easy way to solve it without examining the a school’s ethnic breakdown, you win 2 or less two years in a row you move down a class automatically. No appeal. Exception is when reclassification already moves a team down a class. If they win 2 or less two more seasons they go down again. Winning at least 3 puts them back in proper class after a two year period ends.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Indian

[t-mac]

Nobody wants to play for Maffet. that is the only problem howard has. He is the only program with short numbers

[chumley7]

Glencliff has consistently had less than forty on their roster for a good while and that's with 9-12 all playing varsity. They have no freshman team and don't play JV because of lack of bodies. Three or four years ago they barely had 20 kids playing had to beg some kids to play, there were a few weeks that they played with something like 18 players. Have had many play OL weighing under 150 lbs. Hard to play 48 min (both ways) against guys who out weigh you by 75-100 lbs. 

I think you could look at a school's record over a 6 to 8 year span and if you were one of the 5 smallest in your classification and you have won less than 20% of your games maybe consider allowing a school to play down for a minimum of one classification period. Just an idea. Because I don't think a school would purposely go 1-9 or 2-8 over 6 to 8 years.  

[MichaelMyers76]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:43 AM, WestHigh4Life said:

Very good numbers and facts to back up the argument between Glencliff and West.

However comparing a Nashville school to a Knoxville school in terms of diversity might be a little lopsided. Most teachers that teach in Davidson County have to have their teacher licensure as well as an English as a Second Language Endorsement on their licensure to teach due to the diverse population in many of their schools...Knoxville's diverse population has grown over the years but is not yet at the level to where teachers are required to get an ESL Endorsement on their teaching licensure.

I do feel for schools like Glencliff and wouldnt be surprised if that happens at more schools as the population increases across the state. You would think the TSSAA would take that in account when processing number of students but I guess they dont.

100% false. No teacher in Metro is required to have an English as a second language endorsement on their license unless they actually teach the majority of their day in that subject area. Sure, they would appreciate it if you have ESL certification, but it is definitely not required.

Heck there are 100 teaching openings in Metro high schools right now that they can't fill. They will take any warm, semi-breathing body at this point. We may even bring Mr. Ditto Styles back from John F. Kennedy High School to teach History soon. Nick Nolte recommended him.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by MichaelMyers76