1st set of HS rankings up on Pin-Tn

[TotallynotLEO]

36 minutes ago, Ummmno said:

Could have, but didn't. 

Even with the kids that transferred out they wouldn't have had a real shot. Nobody does. 

Respectfully,  this is why no one outside of 37312 cares all that much anymore about big school championships.  Honestly,  it's just not as entertaining.  

[Ummmno]

22 minutes ago, TotallynotLEO said:

Respectfully,  this is why no one outside of 37312 cares all that much anymore about big school championships.  Honestly,  it's just not as entertaining.  

I dont disagree with you. 

 

We can go on all day about it but its going to end the same. It always does. Here's how it plays out

 

We all talk about how Cleveland gets transfers in every year that make an immediate impact on their team (I think they got two more in this year) and how they have more money and resources than the rest of the state. Someone from Cleveland then comes on and disputes it and says that having more money and resources doesnt make them a better program. That they're better because they "outwork everybody". We all then laugh at them. 

 

That said, Im agreeing with you when it comes to dual championships. Personally, i think, as a whole, small school titles aren't as valuable as big school titles. But again, thats my personal opinion. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Ummmno

[oceansize42]

And Tennessee titles, whether individual or team, aren't as valuable as PA, NJ, OH, or Iowa team titles.  Whatever.  There is a relative degree of difficulty and that is all that matters.  I'm not sure that some can grasp the theory of relativity even when applied outside of physics.  Small schools have less kids to pull athletes from. In some cases, way way less kids.  The degree of difficulty in winning a title is relative and is for all practical purposes the same even if the talent pools are vastly different.  Is the big school champ going to beat the small school champ in a dual? The answer is yes 95% of the time, but that is irrelevant.  The degree of difficulty being relative is all that matters.   Cleveland has roughly 1700 students.  Greeneville has roughly 800 students.    DB and SH have what, 2500 hundred students roughly?  Pair all the small schools together, as we do, and their route to a title is just as difficult precisely because each small school in that final eight has roughly the same ratio of talent to average as all their peers.

 

I don't agree at all that a big school title is more "valuable". If it is then a Tennessee title in big school is really invaluable when compared to the very best a state like PA has to offer.   But again, relativity comes into play.

Edited November 27, 2023 by oceansize42

[TotallynotLEO]

4 hours ago, oceansize42 said:

And Tennessee titles, whether individual or team, aren't as valuable as PA, NJ, OH, or Iowa team titles.  Whatever.  There is a relative degree of difficulty and that is all that matters.  I'm not sure that some can grasp the theory of relativity even when applied outside of physics.  Small schools have less kids to pull athletes from. In some cases, way way less kids.  The degree of difficulty in winning a title is relative and is for all practical purposes the same even if the talent pools are vastly different.  Is the big school champ going to beat the small school champ in a dual? The answer is yes 95% of the time, but that is irrelevant.  The degree of difficulty being relative is all that matters.   Cleveland has roughly 1700 students.  Greeneville has roughly 800 students.    DB and SH have what, 2500 hundred students roughly?  Pair all the small schools together, as we do, and their route to a title is just as difficult precisely because each small school in that final eight has roughly the same ratio of talent to average as all their peers.

 

I don't agree at all that a big school title is more "valuable". If it is then a Tennessee title in big school is really invaluable when compared to the very best a state like PA has to offer.   But again, relativity comes into play.

I have tried to explain this exactly like this on here.  

Take a hard working,  motivated kid from a small school that has some athleticism.  Maybe he has ok coaching,  limited workout options/facilities and few if any good partners to work with in the room.  But he works hard and is dedicated. 

 

Take the same kid.  Give him better coaching.  Better facilities and a workout regimen.  Give him several really good hammers to work with every practice for 2 or 3 years.  

Who wins?  (Rhetorical)

Point being,  in aggregate all these things matter.  Money,  facilities,  coaching,  partners,  school commitment etc. 

To me personally,  what Halls did last year was much more impressive than anything Cleveland did.  With respect,  Halls developed their kids in house from scratch in a more austere environment.  Cleveland is a great program,  they have everything working for them and they should be on top.  Their coaching, facilities,  funding and support are as good as any in the state.  They have no weak spots. When another team does more with less is what impresses me. Just my $.02

Edited November 28, 2023 by TotallynotLEO

[Bump11]

9 hours ago, Ummmno said:

Could have, but didn't. 

Even with the kids that transferred out they wouldn't have had a real shot. Nobody does. 

 the day it happens will be monumental

[texas23]

17 hours ago, TotallynotLEO said:

I have tried to explain this exactly like this on here.  

Take a hard working,  motivated kid from a small school that has some athleticism.  Maybe he has ok coaching,  limited workout options/facilities and few if any good partners to work with in the room.  But he works hard and is dedicated. 

 

Take the same kid.  Give him better coaching.  Better facilities and a workout regimen.  Give him several really good hammers to work with every practice for 2 or 3 years.  

Who wins?  (Rhetorical)

Point being,  in aggregate all these things matter.  Money,  facilities,  coaching,  partners,  school commitment etc. 

To me personally,  what Halls did last year was much more impressive than anything Cleveland did.  With respect,  Halls developed their kids in house from scratch in a more austere environment.  Cleveland is a great program,  they have everything working for them and they should be on top.  Their coaching, facilities,  funding and support are as good as any in the state.  They have no weak spots. When another team does more with less is what impresses me. Just my $.02

I agree with all of this.  Good post.

 

I would say that those people who discount the Cleveland success because that have facilities, money support, fan support , etc., overlooks that those wrestlers are still putting in the required work to be the best they can be.  The same work that the Halls wrestlers or any others are putting in to be the best they can be.

 

 

[Ummmno]

58 minutes ago, texas23 said:

I agree with all of this.  Good post.

 

I would say that those people who discount the Cleveland success because that have facilities, money support, fan support , etc., overlooks that those wrestlers are still putting in the required work to be the best they can be.  The same work that the Halls wrestlers or any others are putting in to be the best they can be.

 

 

Nobody is doubting the work ethic of the kids. Nor are they doubting he work it took to get where they are,

 

The issue has, and will apparently always be, the Cleveland coaching staff (and fans on this board) refuse to acknowledge the money and above average facilities exist. They refuse to admit they have resources, and access to resources, that almost no other programs do. 

 

They say they got where they are SOLELY because they outwork everybody. THAT is the issue. 

[texas23]

7 hours ago, Ummmno said:

Nobody is doubting the work ethic of the kids. Nor are they doubting he work it took to get where they are,

 

The issue has, and will apparently always be, the Cleveland coaching staff (and fans on this board) refuse to acknowledge the money and above average facilities exist. They refuse to admit they have resources, and access to resources, that almost no other programs do. 

 

They say they got where they are SOLELY because they outwork everybody. THAT is the issue. 

Well.....when you say nobody, that is a lot of people you are speaking for.  

 

The issue is that others that are not on the Cleveland sidelines appear to be saying that the money, facilities and what ever else can be applied to their argument IS the reason for the success.   No wonder that the coaches (as you claim) are defending the efforts that these young people put in to this sport.  

 

I do not believe that "they" say it is "solely" because of the "outwork" ethic they may or may not have.  I just think that others are looking for something to be a "victim of", like that rich guy that matches funds raised by the team or the wrestling club, which he also does for the other schools in Bradley county.  I would think that many areas of Tennessee are better off for seeing the model they have built and started kids clubs and are building the models of this success that are possible for their situations.  

 

Just my view on what I read on here.  

[Whs1984]

Cleveland has great facilities no doubt only school I've been to that has their own gym for wrestling. IMO transfers aren't what makes them good it's the competition that middle TN schools have every day in practice their team photos have as many kids in them as a lot of football teams while on the East TN side we struggle to field an entire team 

[Ummmno]

Regardless of why we think Cleveland is the best in the state they are. I'd be inclined to say Baylor may be this year but the rumor I heard is they're intentionally dodging Cleveland. 

 

I'm sure its because they know they probably wouldn't win and like to keep the illusion alive that they're still the number 1 team in the state. 

 

 

[ImYourHuckleberry]

5 minutes ago, Ummmno said:

Regardless of why we think Cleveland is the best in the state they are. I'd be inclined to say Baylor may be this year but the rumor I heard is they're intentionally dodging Cleveland. 

 

I'm sure its because they know they probably wouldn't win and like to keep the illusion alive that they're still the number 1 team in the state. 

 

 

It's a win win situation for Cleveland... if they win, they're the best in the state. If they lose, Baylor hand picked a better team.
Baylor has nothing to gain from possibly losing to Cleveland. The athletes get a blemish on their record against a guy that they wouldn't see at state or at a national level in most cases.

That said, I don't think Baylor would intentionally dodge Cleveland. If both teams wanted it to happen, they would have worked out the details by now.

Edited November 29, 2023 by ImYourHuckleberry
punctuation

[Ummmno]

1 minute ago, ImYourHuckleberry said:

It's a win win situation for Cleveland... if they win, they're the best in the state. If they lose, Baylor hand picked a better team.
Baylor has nothing to gain from possibly losing Cleveland. The athletes get a blemish on their record against a guy that they wouldn't see at state or at a national level in most cases.

That said, I don't think Baylor would intentionally dodge Cleveland. If both teams wanted it to happen, they would have worked out the details by now.

So if one team wants it to happen...and the other team ignores the requests of the first team...

 

what would we call that? Bc, to me, i call that dodging.