Time for a change

[zonepirate]

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ May 27 2007 - 07:13 PM) 826468169[/snapback]Tennessee has the largest multiplier in the country...still people complain, and this only 2 years into it. The question that occurs to me is why Georgia and Alabama can live with smaller multipliers and the Tennessee small schools don't seem to be able to.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

 

 

Yea. Give it a few years before it is declared a failure. Sports success runs in cycles and 2 years is not enough time to judge the effects. Even SP and TC, two of the best in 1A have good years and bad years.

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(MPHSTIGERS87 @ May 29 2007 - 09:07 AM) 826468684[/snapback]what school are you from? are you open zoned? what city or county you from?

 

 

Warning to all the public magnets and open zoned.

 

The privates are taking the hits right now for you, but I can see where this thought process is going. Surely you can too. Once the witch hunt starts reason doesn't matter...anyone who might possibly be different in any way is gonna get labled. You guys are next. I predicted it 2 years ago when we were debating the multiplier. Once the door is open to punishing one group of schools because there is a perceived difference (whether or not it is a real one) all of the people who don't want to accept responsibility for their own destiny step through. All bad things are then caused by the 'different ones'. It has happened throughout history and it is happening now. It happened to the big preps. Instead of doing some serious investigation and handing out real punishment to any rules offenders, the TSSAA split them all, claiming that financial aid was an insurmountable advantage (even though it obviously wasn't...look at the records). Then the TSSAA decided that simply being private was an advantage and multiplied ALL DI privates, even though none of the DIs had records like some small publics. Now it has progressed to the point that large numbers are pushing for all privates to be split...which would put the non-aid into an aid division (I thought aid was the original insurmountable advantage??). It is prejudice against the privates, pure and simple, and open zoned/magnet schools are next.

 

If the privates get moved out you guys are gonna catch the multiplier. I predict 5 divisions within 20 years...DivIrural, DivIurban, DivIother,DivIInonaid,DivIIaid (assuming the privates stay in the TSSAA if they are split, which I seriously doubt) unless this whole infectious attitude is stopped. Don't think that people will stop with the small privates, we are just an easy target right now. Once we are gone it is gonna be you guys...

[MPHSTIGERS87]

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ May 29 2007 - 03:50 PM) 826468807[/snapback]Warning to all the public magnets and open zoned.

 

The privates are taking the hits right now for you, but I can see where this thought process is going. Surely you can too. Once the witch hunt starts reason doesn't matter...anyone who might possibly be different in any way is gonna get labled. You guys are next. I predicted it 2 years ago when we were debating the multiplier. Once the door is open to punishing one group of schools because there is a perceived difference (whether or not it is a real one) all of the people who don't want to accept responsibility for their own destiny step through. All bad things are then caused by the 'different ones'. It has happened throughout history and it is happening now. It happened to the big preps. Instead of doing some serious investigation and handing out real punishment to any rules offenders, the TSSAA split them all, claiming that financial aid was an insurmountable advantage (even though it obviously wasn't...look at the records). Then the TSSAA decided that simply being private was an advantage and multiplied ALL DI privates, even though none of the DIs had records like some small publics. Now it has progressed to the point that large numbers are pushing for all privates to be split...which would put the non-aid into an aid division (I thought aid was the original insurmountable advantage??). It is prejudice against the privates, pure and simple, and open zoned/magnet schools are next.

 

If the privates get moved out you guys are gonna catch the multiplier. I predict 5 divisions within 20 years...DivIrural, DivIurban, DivIother,DivIInonaid,DivIIaid (assuming the privates stay in the TSSAA if they are split, which I seriously doubt) unless this whole infectious attitude is stopped. Don't think that people will stop with the small privates, we are just an easy target right now. Once we are gone it is gonna be you guys...

 

 

So what should the publics do? Those schools who are zoned are screwed. They can practice, work, study harder than anyone else, but if they can only draw kids from a population of 3000 where small 1A privates can draw from hundreds of thousands then where is that fair. Please come up with something other than work harder.

 

To you and the great privates it is an infectious attitude. To small public schools who have had their butts handed to them for the major part of 10-12 years its a cause well deserved to be fought for.

[takedown3]

QUOTE(MPHSTIGERS87 @ May 29 2007 - 07:07 AM) 826468684[/snapback]

what school are you from? are you open zoned? what city or county you from?

 

 

Judging from the questions, you can determine MPH's segregaion criteria for schools: .

 

Div. II)Private

 

Div. I)Public

I(a)Public Zoned

I(b)Public Non-zoned

I©Public Urban

I(d)Public Rural

 

Of course, the four subsets in Div I would have to be further segregated by size which insures what MPH desperately wants, the LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. That, and a few state championships for MPH JR. If we can only come up with a few dozen more combinations and permutations, everyone will be a winner and MPH won't have to be a whiner.

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(MPHSTIGERS87 @ May 29 2007 - 05:01 PM) 826468814[/snapback]So what should the publics do? Those schools who are zoned are screwed. They can practice, work, study harder than anyone else, but if they can only draw kids from a population of 3000 where small 1A privates can draw from hundreds of thousands then where is that fair. Please come up with something other than work harder.

 

To you and the great privates it is an infectious attitude. To small public schools who have had their butts handed to them for the major part of 10-12 years its a cause well deserved to be fought for.

 

 

 

MP,

 

I have never used words like 'great' or the sarcasm that you throw at me all the time...yet you question my character constantly. Odd...

 

I'm gonna break down the "they have more people to chose from argument" 1 more time. I don't know how I can explain it any more plainly, but I'll try.

 

There are 2 fallacies to the "small privates have gazillions of students to chose from" argument.

 

The first is the idea that there are actually a lot of kids to choose from...much more than the small publics have. As an example let's look at the metro area of Chattanooga (Hamilton County and the counties that touch it). You have a population of about half a million...not looking for exact numbers here, just working with generalities. Given that high school age kids are about 1/16th of the population, that gives us about 31k kids to work with. Now, more than 60% of those will drop out, and the privates aren't going to accept a kid who isn't somewhat academically committed, so that leaves us with a pool of about 15k. In Chattanooga, only the top 20% of wage earners can afford private tuition, so that leaves us with a pool of 7.5k. Of those kids' families, less than half will chose private ed over public for various reasons, but we will use half. So now we have a pool of 3750 possible high school kids. There are 2 big guys prep schools in town (Baylor and McCallie) which will account for 800 or so of the guys...GPS and Baylor will account for 800 or so of the girls. Leaving about 2100 highschool kids for the remaining small privates. In the metro area there are Boyd, CCHS, Temple, Grace, Silverdale, David Brainerd, Collegedale Academy, Notre Dame, and a school in Cleveland that I can't remember...all with high-schools. That means that the potential student pool for 10 high schools is about 2100 kids...I'm guessing that that isn't any larger than MPHS's population base. Just for argument's sake lets make the population 20% larger (600k). That leaves about 2500 kids for 10 high schools to choose from...and that doesn't count the homeschoolers(and there are a lot of them).

 

Now, where are all these millions of people that we have to choose from? I've said it several ways, but I keep coming back to this...a wide but shallow puddle LOOKS bigger than a small deep one, but they have the same amount of water. Small privates LOOK like they have a larger population to pull from, but in reality they do not, it is just spread out more than a small public's population.

 

That was fallacy 1. Fallacy 2 is the assumption that a larger pool to choose from = better athletics. It only = more athletes/better athletics IF the school is selecting SPECIFICALLY for athletes. No small private that I know of even has athletics as an information category on it's application, much less selects kids based on whether they are good at some sport. I know that no coach at Boyd has ever had any input into who gets in...that decision is solely up to the principals, neither of which has ever been a coach of anything (both are female...great people, but not coaches) and neither of which could care less if a kid is an athlete. We just play with what we have...much like you guys I would suspect. Heck, we don't even get to set the date for the Homecoming game...we just get told when it will be every year.

 

I know the whole idea of selecting the cream from untold masses of students is an attractive one, because it would certainly be an advantage if someone could do it...but it just doesn't happen in the 'nooga, maybe in Nashville because there is a lot more money available (bigger base + bigger income = bigger pool), but I am guessing the situation is similar there too (more privates).

[robjim]

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ May 30 2007 - 01:10 AM) 826468963[/snapback]MP,

 

I have never used words like 'great' or the sarcasm that you throw at me all the time...yet you question my character constantly. Odd...

 

I'm gonna break down the "they have more people to chose from argument" 1 more time. I don't know how I can explain it any more plainly, but I'll try.

 

There are 2 fallacies to the "small privates have gazillions of students to chose from" argument.

 

The first is the idea that there are actually a lot of kids to choose from...much more than the small publics have. As an example let's look at the metro area of Chattanooga (Hamilton County and the counties that touch it). You have a population of about half a million...not looking for exact numbers here, just working with generalities. Given that high school age kids are about 1/16th of the population, that gives us about 31k kids to work with. Now, more than 60% of those will drop out, and the privates aren't going to accept a kid who isn't somewhat academically committed, so that leaves us with a pool of about 15k. In Chattanooga, only the top 20% of wage earners can afford private tuition, so that leaves us with a pool of 7.5k. Of those kids' families, less than half will chose private ed over public for various reasons, but we will use half. So now we have a pool of 3750 possible high school kids. There are 2 big guys prep schools in town (Baylor and McCallie) which will account for 800 or so of the guys...GPS and Baylor will account for 800 or so of the girls. Leaving about 2100 highschool kids for the remaining small privates. In the metro area there are Boyd, CCHS, Temple, Grace, Silverdale, David Brainerd, Collegedale Academy, Notre Dame, and a school in Cleveland that I can't remember...all with high-schools. That means that the potential student pool for 10 high schools is about 2100 kids...I'm guessing that that isn't any larger than MPHS's population base. Just for argument's sake lets make the population 20% larger (600k). That leaves about 2500 kids for 10 high schools to choose from...and that doesn't count the homeschoolers(and there are a lot of them).

 

Now, where are all these millions of people that we have to choose from? I've said it several ways, but I keep coming back to this...a wide but shallow puddle LOOKS bigger than a small deep one, but they have the same amount of water. Small privates LOOK like they have a larger population to pull from, but in reality they do not, it is just spread out more than a small public's population.

 

That was fallacy 1. Fallacy 2 is the assumption that a larger pool to choose from = better athletics. It only = more athletes/better athletics IF the school is selecting SPECIFICALLY for athletes. No small private that I know of even has athletics as an information category on it's application, much less selects kids based on whether they are good at some sport. I know that no coach at Boyd has ever had any input into who gets in...that decision is solely up to the principals, neither of which has ever been a coach of anything (both are female...great people, but not coaches) and neither of which could care less if a kid is an athlete. We just play with what we have...much like you guys I would suspect. Heck, we don't even get to set the date for the Homecoming game...we just get told when it will be every year.

 

I know the whole idea of selecting the cream from untold masses of students is an attractive one, because it would certainly be an advantage if someone could do it...but it just doesn't happen in the 'nooga, maybe in Nashville because there is a lot more money available (bigger base + bigger income = bigger pool), but I am guessing the situation is similar there too (more privates).

 

 

Same issues in Nashville, BC, but you left out one. Noone wants to drive in Nashville traffic to CPA from anywhere other than 5-10 miles. It just takes to long, let alone now the price of gas. This idea that we have a pool of great athletes to pull from is bogus. Don't forget there are 11 other private schools, within that 5-10 mile radius.

[takedown3]

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ May 30 2007 - 12:10 AM) 826468963[/snapback]MP,

 

I have never used words like 'great' or the sarcasm that you throw at me all the time...yet you question my character constantly. Odd...

 

I'm gonna break down the "they have more people to chose from argument" 1 more time. I don't know how I can explain it any more plainly, but I'll try.

 

There are 2 fallacies to the "small privates have gazillions of students to chose from" argument.

 

The first is the idea that there are actually a lot of kids to choose from...much more than the small publics have. As an example let's look at the metro area of Chattanooga (Hamilton County and the counties that touch it). You have a population of about half a million...not looking for exact numbers here, just working with generalities. Given that high school age kids are about 1/16th of the population, that gives us about 31k kids to work with. Now, more than 60% of those will drop out, and the privates aren't going to accept a kid who isn't somewhat academically committed, so that leaves us with a pool of about 15k. In Chattanooga, only the top 20% of wage earners can afford private tuition, so that leaves us with a pool of 7.5k. Of those kids' families, less than half will chose private ed over public for various reasons, but we will use half. So now we have a pool of 3750 possible high school kids. There are 2 big guys prep schools in town (Baylor and McCallie) which will account for 800 or so of the guys...GPS and Baylor will account for 800 or so of the girls. Leaving about 2100 highschool kids for the remaining small privates. In the metro area there are Boyd, CCHS, Temple, Grace, Silverdale, David Brainerd, Collegedale Academy, Notre Dame, and a school in Cleveland that I can't remember...all with high-schools. That means that the potential student pool for 10 high schools is about 2100 kids...I'm guessing that that isn't any larger than MPHS's population base. Just for argument's sake lets make the population 20% larger (600k). That leaves about 2500 kids for 10 high schools to choose from...and that doesn't count the homeschoolers(and there are a lot of them).

 

Now, where are all these millions of people that we have to choose from? I've said it several ways, but I keep coming back to this...a wide but shallow puddle LOOKS bigger than a small deep one, but they have the same amount of water. Small privates LOOK like they have a larger population to pull from, but in reality they do not, it is just spread out more than a small public's population.

 

That was fallacy 1. Fallacy 2 is the assumption that a larger pool to choose from = better athletics. It only = more athletes/better athletics IF the school is selecting SPECIFICALLY for athletes. No small private that I know of even has athletics as an information category on it's application, much less selects kids based on whether they are good at some sport. I know that no coach at Boyd has ever had any input into who gets in...that decision is solely up to the principals, neither of which has ever been a coach of anything (both are female...great people, but not coaches) and neither of which could care less if a kid is an athlete. We just play with what we have...much like you guys I would suspect. Heck, we don't even get to set the date for the Homecoming game...we just get told when it will be every year.

 

I know the whole idea of selecting the cream from untold masses of students is an attractive one, because it would certainly be an advantage if someone could do it...but it just doesn't happen in the 'nooga, maybe in Nashville because there is a lot more money available (bigger base + bigger income = bigger pool), but I am guessing the situation is similar there too (more privates).

 

 

Excellent analysis but in this case you've just thrown pearls before swine.

[Indian]

The dropout rate in the Chattanooga area isn't 60 percent, and I'm sure more than 20 percent could afford small private tuition. We hear over and over on here about all the sacrifices made by many parents to send their kids to private schools and that not everyone attending is wealthy. You can't have it both ways. And I hope you're including North Georgia in your numbers.

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(Indian @ May 30 2007 - 01:38 PM) 826469094[/snapback]The dropout rate in the Chattanooga area isn't 60 percent, and I'm sure more than 20 percent could afford small private tuition. We hear over and over on here about all the sacrifices made by many parents to send their kids to private schools and that not everyone attending is wealthy. You can't have it both ways. And I hope you're including North Georgia in your numbers.

 

 

The dropout rate is higher than 60% in Chattanooga. The given rate is in the low 40%'s, but that is only for Seniors who have completed a week of school, it doesn't take into account Sophomores and Juniors who drop out or simply don't come back to school after they hit 16. The whole state under-reports drop out rates to keep Federal funding. Statewide the rate is around 40%, but that only includes those who start school their Senior year...it is a fraud.

 

Certainly there are some people who are not in the top 20% who sacrifice to send their kids to a private...I said I was working with generalities. You realize that the average household income in Hamilton County is around 30k and that an annual household income of 70k or so puts you into the top 20%, right?

 

The metro area would be any county that touched Hamilton, so that includes the 2 North Georgia counties. I tried to include those numbers with the 20% increase to 600000, but even if it is 700000 you are looking at a potential pool of less than 3000 kids for 10 small private highschools. And even if you double the possible people who could afford tuition you are looking at a potential pool of less than 6000. From that you would have to exclude homeschooled kids, behavioral problems, and kids/parents who don't like the idea or discipline of a religious school. I know it stinks for your arguments, but that is just the way it is...we don't have waiting lists in every grade all the time, because there just aren't that many extra kids available.

[MPHSTIGERS87]

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ May 30 2007 - 01:10 AM) 826468963[/snapback]MP,

 

I have never used words like 'great' or the sarcasm that you throw at me all the time...yet you question my character constantly. Odd...

 

There are 2 fallacies to the "small privates have gazillions of students to chose from" argument.

 

The first is the idea that there are actually a lot of kids to choose from...much more than the small publics have. As an example let's look at the metro area of Chattanooga (Hamilton County and the counties that touch it). You have a population of about half a million...not looking for exact numbers here, just working with generalities. Given that high school age kids are about 1/16th of the population, that gives us about 31k kids to work with. Now, more than 60% of those will drop out, and the privates aren't going to accept a kid who isn't somewhat academically committed, so that leaves us with a pool of about 15k. In Chattanooga, only the top 20% of wage earners can afford private tuition, so that leaves us with a pool of 7.5k. Of those kids' families, less than half will chose private ed over public for various reasons, but we will use half. So now we have a pool of 3750 possible high school kids. There are 2 big guys prep schools in town (Baylor and McCallie) which will account for 800 or so of the guys...GPS and Baylor will account for 800 or so of the girls. Leaving about 2100 highschool kids for the remaining small privates. In the metro area there are Boyd, CCHS, Temple, Grace, Silverdale, David Brainerd, Collegedale Academy, Notre Dame, and a school in Cleveland that I can't remember...all with high-schools. That means that the potential student pool for 10 high schools is about 2100 kids...I'm guessing that that isn't any larger than MPHS's population base. Just for argument's sake lets make the population 20% larger (600k). That leaves about 2500 kids for 10 high schools to choose from...and that doesn't count the homeschoolers(and there are a lot of them).

 

That was fallacy 1. Fallacy 2 is the assumption that a larger pool to choose from = better athletics. It only = more athletes/better athletics IF the school is selecting SPECIFICALLY for athletes. No small private that I know of even has athletics as an information category on it's application, much less selects kids based on whether they are good at some sport. I know that no coach at Boyd has ever had any input into who gets in...that decision is solely up to the principals, neither of which has ever been a coach of anything (both are female...great people, but not coaches) and neither of which could care less if a kid is an athlete. We just play with what we have...much like you guys I would suspect. Heck, we don't even get to set the date for the Homecoming game...we just get told when it will be every year.

 

I know the whole idea of selecting the cream from untold masses of students is an attractive one, because it would certainly be an advantage if someone could do it...but it just doesn't happen in the 'nooga, maybe in Nashville because there is a lot more money available (bigger base + bigger income = bigger pool), but I am guessing the situation is similar there too (more privates).

 

 

First off, sorry about any sarcasm and I truly mean that.

 

Now with the same equation you use in your area, you can use it in Maury Co. also along with the zoning issue. Your numbers start with around 500,000 if Im correct where Maury Co is around 50 to 60 thousand. You then zone where MP is and you are looking at a population 5000-7000 using your formula and our selection is still less than private schools in 1A. Look you have your way of looking at it and I have mine. I see your point some but you should also see the point of the small rural schools.

[Indian]

North Georgia, counties within an easy distance to Chattanooga, includes five or six counties, add on an additional 300,000 total residents to the Southeast Tennesee numbers. There are students from every SE TN county going to Chattanooga private schools, so add in Bradley and Rhea, not just those officially in the Hamilton metro area. There's no good way of estimating how many would be willing to "sacrifice" but well above 20 percent could afford most of the private schools if they were really wanted. Beyond all the figures though, with all these hardships and woe is me the small privates are facing, how do they continue to dominate? It all goes back to the selective enrollment, part of the overall quality of the average student being stronger and part to the parent involvement.

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(MPHSTIGERS87 @ May 30 2007 - 02:04 PM) 826469120[/snapback]First off, sorry about any sarcasm and I truly mean that.

 

Now with the same equation you use in your area, you can use it in Maury Co. also along with the zoning issue. Your numbers start with around 500,000 if Im correct where Maury Co is around 50 to 60 thousand. You then zone where MP is and you are looking at a population 5000-7000 using your formula and our selection is still less than private schools in 1A. Look you have your way of looking at it and I have mine. I see your point some but you should also see the point of the small rural schools.

 

 

MP,

 

If I use your numbers and assume 1/16th of the population is highschool kids, MPHS has a possible population of 375 (6000/16). Some will homeschool, some will drop out, etc.

 

Compare that to a possible population of 3000 for the 10 small privates in Chattanooga...that is 300 per school, or in the same range as the pool for MPHS. While our 300 possible kids are spread out over a much larger area, we get a MUCH lower percentage. MPHS has a much smaller geographic area to chose from with a much smaller population, but they get virtually every kid in their zone. It is the large shallow puddle vs the small deep one.

 

Apology accepted, and I apologize for anything I have posted that sounded snotty. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />