Poll: Public Schools With Open Enrollment

[ucvol]

 

To add to what Swo just said, UC doesn't gain kids from the county, we lose kids to the county. Obion County runs buses all over UC. The state ruled that county buses can run in the city but UC can't run buses in the county. I don't see how UC can be benefitting from open enrollment when 7 or 8 students leave for every 1 that comes in. Maybe some of you smart guys can explain that to us.

[pujo]

To add to what Swo just said, UC doesn't gain kids from the county, we lose kids to the county. Obion County runs buses all over UC. The state ruled that county buses can run in the city but UC can't run buses in the county. I don't see how UC can be benefitting from open enrollment when 7 or 8 students leave for every 1 that comes in. Maybe some of you smart guys can explain that to us.

Addition be subtraction.

[AlcoaBasketball]

Alcoa is pretty rural. We have the aluminum plant and the airport, but not much else.

[kenmynattcpa]

Kenny if you were to come to Union City and go through the enrollment files, I can garuntee that you will find that our student body is made up of 95% city address. I know we are open enrollment and I know that sounds unfair but you also must undserstand the dinamics of County versus city in our area. For many years both UC and OC were the same classification (2A). There was an overwhelming amount of animosity between the 2 schools and lines were drawn in the sand by the community, not by the state. You were either County or City and your loyalties were strong. It was mainly determined by where your parents went to school. You could live in Union City and catch a bus or drive to Troy Tn to Obion County Central. Over the years OC has grown and grown while UC has dropped to the 1A level. Now how does that make sense? We have lost more to OC than we have gained. And the idea that we have the entire county to choose athletes from is just stupid. Most of the county population is very rural and those kids catch the bus to OC. One last thing. If you want to beat Union City, work harder than we do. We have had more bad years than good. Our success of late has to do more with Coach Bowling and his coaching and training program. Those boys work hard for him and believe in what he does. If you want to beat a team like that your are gonna have to out work them. I challenge you to find some real data to support your comment.

 

Whoa SWO, I wasn't singling out UC, just using them as an example. The TSSAA BOC is having this debate next week in session and I was just posing a question. It seems like all of the open enrollment schools claim they are not getting a benefit from open enrollment. They talk like it's a heavy burden and an albatross around their collective necks. Some therefore are wondering why these same schools continue to offer open enrollment. 

 

From the Tennessean on 5/16/15: 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/high-school/2015/05/16/tssaa-council-public-private-classification-options/27458829/?fb_action_ids=10205144867854748&fb_action_types=og.comments

 

"Bernard Childress said the TSSAA staff also will address what could be the larger issue. Is this is about public vs. private, or is it about open-zoned schools vs. schools with defined geographic zones?

 

Childress said the TSSAA staff has looked at 16,000 postseason contests in all sports that the association sanctions. Schools with open enrollment won more than 60 percent of the time.

Open enrollment schools include private schools, charter schools, magnet schools or schools that don’t have a distinct boundary.

“I think that is the issue that every state in the national federation is dealing with,†Childress said. “We’ll have information that we’ll share at that time in what other states have done and are doing now along the lines of public-private and boundary vs. non-boundary schools.â€

__________________________________________________________________

My point is an awful lot of public school supporters are wanting to throw these small inexpensive private schools which struggle to break even each year into the same pot as the Ensworths and Momma's Boy Academys (MBA) of the State just because middle class parents chose to send their children there. They argue it's a choice and use this argument to it to support a 1.8 private school enrollment multiplier to "level the playing field". I'm pointing out the hypocrisy, because with open zoning there is also choice, so why shouldn't these schools also have a multiplier?

[BigSwo2]

Whoa SWO, I wasn't singling out UC, just using them as an example. The TSSAA BOC is having this debate next week in session and I was just posing a question. It seems like all of the open enrollment schools claim they are not getting a benefit from open enrollment. They talk like it's a heavy burden and an albatross around their collective necks. Some therefore are wondering why these same schools continue to offer open enrollment. 

 

From the Tennessean on 5/16/15: 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/high-school/2015/05/16/tssaa-council-public-private-classification-options/27458829/?fb_action_ids=10205144867854748&fb_action_types=og.comments

 

"Bernard Childress said the TSSAA staff also will address what could be the larger issue. Is this is about public vs. private, or is it about open-zoned schools vs. schools with defined geographic zones?

 

Childress said the TSSAA staff has looked at 16,000 postseason contests in all sports that the association sanctions. Schools with open enrollment won more than 60 percent of the time.

Open enrollment schools include private schools, charter schools, magnet schools or schools that don’t have a distinct boundary.

“I think that is the issue that every state in the national federation is dealing with,†Childress said. “We’ll have information that we’ll share at that time in what other states have done and are doing now along the lines of public-private and boundary vs. non-boundary schools.â€

__________________________________________________________________

My point is an awful lot of public school supporters are wanting to throw these small inexpensive private schools which struggle to break even each year into the same pot as the Ensworths and Momma's Boy Academys (MBA) of the State just because middle class parents chose to send their children there. They argue it's a choice and use this argument to it to support a 1.8 private school enrollment multiplier to "level the playing field". I'm pointing out the hypocrisy, because with open zoning there is also choice, so why shouldn't these schools also have a multiplier?

I apologize for not understanding what you were trying to say. I see the point you are trying to make but keep in mind that simply because a school is in an open zone does not mean that there is an automatic advantage. UC has had some very mediocre years. We will have them again. It depends upon the kids and the work ethic they possess. There is a great divide in our county. You are raised either City or County and there are some exceptions but most stick with their heritage. If the rule comes down that open zoned schools will be penalized then UC will close the door to open zone and we will not miss a beat. I don't know what people will talk about if and when that happens. I truly hope we can keep Coach Bowling for many years to come. I also hope to be playing NCS for the right to represent the west once again in Cookeville. My best to you and yours.

[RebRaider85]

The difference is that privates are 100% composed of students from "anywhere" (even across county/state boundaries without issues) and the vast majority of open zone public schools actually do have a designated zone that they draw 95%+ of their students from but they have a policy that allows out of zone students to attend if there is room and maybe the student has to pay tuition equivalent to the "extra" that a city for instance might spend on top of the average cost that the state/county reimburses for education per student. Any county resident should be able to go to their choice of same-county schools without paying extra. Being completely "fair" between private and public in this case would mean applying the 1.8 multiplier times the number of OOZ students in the public open zoned school and adding that to the in-zone population. Reality here is that the small number of actual OOZ students would mean little difference at all in classification status for the vast majority of public schools. I know the charter/magnet and other schools of that type don't fit that mold but have not heard of huge issues with that yet. Maybe someone on here can fill us in on what public "schools that don't have a distinct boundary" (referenced above) are out there???

Edited June 6, 2015 by RebRaider85

[Big Bigby]

Folks can debate the minutiae of this all they want.... Here are the facts of the matter, plus or minus a detail.....

 

Between 1A and 2A since 1999 there have been 30 State Championship games played.

 

Out of 30 games....

 

19 games won by Publics

11 games won by Privates.

 

But..... This is not the typical Public vs Private argument.... This is a question of Public vs. Public. 

 

Out of those 19 Public school Wins... Only 8 schools did it!

 

6 - Alcoa - Blount Co. - Open Enrollment

4 - Trousdale Co. - Open Enrollment

3 - S. Pittsburgh - Marion Co. - Open Enrollment

2 - Union City - Obion Co. - Open Enrollment

1 - Gordonsville - Smith Co. - ??????

1 - Wayne Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

1 - Huntingdon - Carroll Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

1 - Signal Mountain - Hamilton Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

 

Anyone see the obvious?

 

I will not make no statements but would like to here all the opinions and arguments folks care to sling at the data.

 

Open Enrollment Counties have won 16 titles... 

 

Closed Enrollment/Zoned Counties have won 3 titles...

 

+ or - Gordonsville to either side cause I don't know if that county is open/closed.

 

What am I missing here?... I will set back and read others conclusions on the data.

[AlcoaBasketball]

Alcoa has been open zone since 1919, yet it was never a problem until we started winning.

[rlh]

Folks can debate the minutiae of this all they want.... Here are the facts of the matter, plus or minus a detail.....

 

Between 1A and 2A since 1999 there have been 30 State Championship games played.

 

Out of 30 games....

 

19 games won by Publics

11 games won by Privates.

 

But..... This is not the typical Public vs Private argument.... This is a question of Public vs. Public. 

 

Out of those 19 Public school Wins... Only 8 schools did it!

 

6 - Alcoa - Blount Co. - Open Enrollment

4 - Trousdale Co. - Open Enrollment

3 - S. Pittsburgh - Marion Co. - Open Enrollment

2 - Union City - Obion Co. - Open Enrollment

1 - Gordonsville - Smith Co. - ??????

1 - Wayne Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

1 - Huntingdon - Carroll Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

1 - Signal Mountain - Hamilton Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

 

Anyone see the obvious?

 

I will not make no statements but would like to here all the opinions and arguments folks care to sling at the data.

 

Open Enrollment Counties have won 16 titles... 

 

Closed Enrollment/Zoned Counties have won 3 titles...

 

+ or - Gordonsville to either side cause I don't know if that county is open/closed.

 

What am I missing here?... I will set back and read others conclusions on the data.

SP and Marion County High are NOT open enrollment in the context you are trying to make it.  Buses do not run all over the county.  Students/Parents have to get permission to transfer students out of their zone.  Furthermore, SP has historically been one of the 10 smallest public schools with a football team during most of those years.  If a kid from Whitwell wanted to attend SP, the parents would have to get permission and transport him.  If he had never played, he could play.  If he had played, he would have to sit out 1 year per TSSAA rules. 

 

By the way, the numbers are wrong.  SP has 5 gold balls and 6 silver in Foot ball and 1 gold ball in baseball. Plus, you don't have Jasper High in there (MaryAnn County High) and they have several gold and silver footballs and some gold baseballs as well. I realize you putt some stupid time frame on it.  But if you look at SP and Jasper completely, you will see that the tradition has been there. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by rlh

[RebRaider85]

It is mainly a city-county thing and all about resources. The cities have an addition set of taxes layered on top of the county taxes and can pay for better facilities, higher teacher base pay, higher coaching supplements, higher numbers of coaches, etc. Roll all that together and they have the ability to attract the better coaches. Several cities near me regularly attract good head coaches from other schools to be assistant coaches at the city schools because there is a significant raise in pay to move over and of course they are going to do it to take care of their families. The other thing is the youth programs that are better facilitated in the urban setting and there are some public schools in more affluent settings that can put more resources into the program through booster programs. You can point at those specific examples of open zone publics all you want but the truth is that these places have all developed good programs and are just successful right now. There are huge numbers of open zone schools out there that are not winning championships.

Edited June 6, 2015 by RebRaider85

[BigDave1967]

Edited June 7, 2015 by BigDave1967

[UpperCumberlandMan]

Folks can debate the minutiae of this all they want.... Here are the facts of the matter, plus or minus a detail.....

 

Between 1A and 2A since 1999 there have been 30 State Championship games played.

 

Out of 30 games....

 

19 games won by Publics

11 games won by Privates.

 

But..... This is not the typical Public vs Private argument.... This is a question of Public vs. Public.

 

Out of those 19 Public school Wins... Only 8 schools did it!

 

6 - Alcoa - Blount Co. - Open Enrollment

4 - Trousdale Co. - Open Enrollment

3 - S. Pittsburgh - Marion Co. - Open Enrollment

2 - Union City - Obion Co. - Open Enrollment

1 - Gordonsville - Smith Co. - ??????

1 - Wayne Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

1 - Huntingdon - Carroll Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

1 - Signal Mountain - Hamilton Co. - Closed Enrollment/Zoned

 

Anyone see the obvious?

 

I will not make no statements but would like to here all the opinions and arguments folks care to sling at the data.

 

Open Enrollment Counties have won 16 titles...

 

Closed Enrollment/Zoned Counties have won 3 titles...

 

+ or - Gordonsville to either side cause I don't know if that county is open/closed.

 

What am I missing here?... I will set back and read others conclusions on the data.

Gordonsville is open zoned, kids from Carthage(Smith Co HS) can go to Gordonsville if they provide their own transpertaion.