Privates recruiting

[Kublah]

My question with the merit system is what happens when you have talent drop offs?

 

I mean, look at USJ. The past two years they have had the least talent in the history of the school. They went from having some of the top talent in West TN to a mediocre 1A team with one graduating class. They've got several years with a lack of talent and then they have a class coming up that should have 4-5 D1 signees. Do you shift teams up and down classes based on how you think they should be?

[oknative]

My question with the merit system is what happens when you have talent drop offs?

 

I mean, look at USJ. The past two years they have had the least talent in the history of the school. They went from having some of the top talent in West TN to a mediocre 1A team with one graduating class. They've got several years with a lack of talent and then they have a class coming up that should have 4-5 D1 signees. Do you shift teams up and down classes based on how you think they should be?

No, you don't shift teams based on how you think they should be, you shift teams based on how they've actually performed. There's quite a difference between the two.

[Bighurt]

My question with the merit system is what happens when you have talent drop offs?

 

I mean, look at USJ. The past two years they have had the least talent in the history of the school. They went from having some of the top talent in West TN to a mediocre 1A team with one graduating class. They've got several years with a lack of talent and then they have a class coming up that should have 4-5 D1 signees. Do you shift teams up and down classes based on how you think they should be?

There is a topic discussing how a Merit System might work - The Merit System

 

Teams would be promoted or relegated (demoted) based on their actual performance in each sport.

[oknative]

So if I understand all the arguments, there needs to be a split between teams that have advantages over one another. Not just between public and private, but between schools that have distinct advantages. I'd like to propose another model that may have not been considered.

 

1, We have one division for public schools

2. We have one division for pubic schools, who allow students to come in from outside of their zone and pay tuition to attend.

3. We have one division for public magnet schools, who are open zoned.

4. We have one division for public magnet schools, who are closed zone (Liberty Jackson)

5. We have one division for private schools who don't offer any assistance

6. We have one division for private schools who offer assistance based on need.

7. And while we're at it, we have one division for private schools who can offer any kind of assistance or scholarship to get students to attend.

 

And of course there would have to be a second division for each of the above 7 variations above if the school recruits or advertises itself in any manner.

 

Recruiting, ie, advertising - check

Private v. Public

Daddy have too much money - check

Nice facilities - check

Enrollment - check

Open v. closed zone - check

no need for multiplier

 

Although we end up with 14 divisions, each with enrollment classes, I think everyone can now be happy. All of the inequities of TN athletics are resolved. Of course except that some athletes are actually better than others. But then again, they can resolve that on the field.

Edited December 8, 2006 by oknative

[Baldcoach]

Heh...I posted a similar post about 2 years ago OK...I said that if the witch hunt continues there will be DI which will be small rural schools. DII which will be aid giving privates. DIII which will be non-aid giving privates. DIV which will be non-open zoned metro schools, and DV which will be open zoned publics and magnets (although eventually this will split into rural open and metro open...DV and DVI). People laughed...I was not really joking. The whole whiny 'blame the other guys for our poor performance' attitude combined with the whole idea that just fielding a team makes a team 'deserve' to be able to compete is insidious and spreads like a virus.

 

Laz,

 

I really wasn't going into the whole breakdown. Those of us who have some HR or small business real world experience know that benefits run in the 18 - 30 % of payroll range, and that there are certainly investments like endowments that are generating interest, at least for the established privates. Most of the DI privates don't have large endowments...partially because they are relatively young and partially because they don't attract the really wealthy donors that the elite preps do. Their mission is different...provide a good education in a spiritual atmosphere instead of an elite education...therefore the Ted Turners generally don't choose them.

 

Also, most of the money raised by DI privates either goes into paying off existing building debt, building new and needed buildings, or into the general operating account as the tuition NEVER pays all the bills...all the DI privates I know of run a deficit budget and have to raise money just to make ends meet every year. Very little of the money raised ever goes into an endowment. One of the main methods for increasing endowment for the small privates is asking grandparents and older supporters to include the school in their wills. The older elite preps paid off everything long ago...and if they need new buildings they can often count on a handful of really big donors to front the cash. So a large chunk of their fund raising goes into increasing endowment. You would not believe the difference between a pretty large established DI private (like us) and a large prep (like Baylor or McCallie), but I'm not exagerating to say that their endowment is easily worth everything we have times 50 to 100, and that is just the cash value of their endowments, not the value of their campuses and equipment. Or, to put it another way, the new sports facilities at Baylor and McCallie (paid for by a small group of donors) cost more money than we have + more than our land and buildings are worth.

 

Now for the kicker, who has more cash, small publics or small privates. Answer, yes. Some small privates are in wealthy areas with lots of wealthy donors (CPA and GP have had multiple country music stars send their kids...and donate LARGE sums, Chattanooga Christian has been given large gifts by the McClellan family, etc.). Some small publics are in wealthier areas and get plenty O' cash. And the opposite is true. I can tell you that locally the Marion County School Board is trying to build a new gym for South Pittsburgh(1a). If I read the paper right they are arguing about whether it will cost 32 million or 20 million...the 20 mill figure would "cut back" on a lot of "essential" functionality. We have 2 gyms, an elementary, middle school, cafeteria, high school, and field house/band building that didn't cost 32 million COMBINED. Hamilton County built Lookout Valley a brand new Baseball field 14 years ago...cost about 400k. All of our fields together didn't cost that much. It seems plain to me who has the most cash...and it isn't the small privates.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Baldcoach

[Solomon]

Now for the kicker, who has more cash, small publics or small privates. Answer, yes. Some small privates are in wealthy areas with lots of wealthy donors (CPA and GP have had multiple country music stars send their kids...and donate LARGE sums, Chattanooga Christian has been given large gifts by the McClellan family, etc.). Some small publics are in wealthier areas and get plenty O' cash. And the opposite is true. I can tell you that locally the Marion County School Board is trying to build a new gym for South Pittsburgh(1a). If I read the paper right they are arguing about whether it will cost 32 million or 20 million...the 20 mill figure would "cut back" on a lot of "essential" functionality. We have 2 gyms, an elementary, middle school, cafeteria, high school, and field house/band building that didn't cost 32 million COMBINED. Hamilton County built Lookout Valley a brand new Baseball field 14 years ago...cost about 400k. All of our fields together didn't cost that much. It seems plain to me who has the most cash...and it isn't the small privates.

 

Also, I would also throw out there that at least to me, privates are better stewards of the money they have than publics are. Somebody posted a while back the difference in what the new Hardin Valley high school is going to cost versus what the new Knoxville Catholic cost. The differences were astronomical.

[ksgovols]

Let`s see now....We have established that there are both public and private schools that get benefits from having an open zone.

 

We have established that there are private as well as some publics that are fortunate to be located or have access to a little more money than others.

 

We have established that there are public and private schools that are advertising to promote the strengths of their schools on order to attract students.

 

Looks to me that there will always be some imbalances among all the schools. Looks to me like a merit system would be the perfect fit for everyone.

 

I agree. A merit system is totally based on on the field performance against other schools of similar talent. It doesn't matter how the talent got there or how much money they have. If a closed zone public is competing year in and year out with the magnet schools and private schools and open zoned publics of the world, then more power to them. If a private school is not competing with it's brethren on the field, then they can compete in a lower division. I support a merit system 100%. The closed zone publics in 1A-3A get crapped on by the privates AND magnet schools AND open zoned publics for the most part. Let's settle this on the field.

[cbg]

I agree. A merit system is totally based on on the field performance against other schools of similar talent. It doesn't matter how the talent got there or how much money they have. If a closed zone public is competing year in and year out with the magnet schools and private schools and open zoned publics of the world, then more power to them. If a private school is not competing with it's brethren on the field, then they can compete in a lower division. I support a merit system 100%. The closed zone publics in 1A-3A get crapped on by the privates AND magnet schools AND open zoned publics for the most part. Let's settle this on the field.

 

 

No doubt that a using the Merit System for football would be the most fair thing for all schools. If the private schools are that good they will play in a higher classification and be seperated from the small rual public schools. The problems witht he Merit System as I see them are two fold:

1. The Board of Control is not looking to be fair.

2. People are scared of the unknown and they don't understand the Merit System

[VolunteerGeneral]

No doubt that a using the Merit System for football would be the most fair thing for all schools. If the private schools are that good they will play in a higher classification and be seperated from the small rual public schools. The problems witht he Merit System as I see them are two fold:

1. The Board of Control is not looking to be fair.

2. People are scared of the unknown and they don't understand the Merit System

 

I think most people that want a split do so because they simply don`t like private schools. Some have suggested its because of a socio-economic envy of a perceived conception that somehow private schools have something they don`t have. Or maybe it`s because they think that private schools have kids that belong to other schools. Whatever the reason I think most people that want the split don`t care about fairness like they claim they do. I think they just don`t like private schools.

 

Whether folks like it or not that private schools have no zones, the fact is that there are just gonna be more and more open zoned and magnet public schools in the future. There will never be an exact level playing field. If these split proponents were really sincere in the desire to make things better they would be embracing some sort of merit system.

[Green_Acres]

And you would be wrong. In most every case of college recruiting, coaches go visit the players and the players visit the school. Most everyone would agree that is recruiting. Placing an advertisement on television is not "undue influence" on a parent or player, and therefore by the definition - this can't possibly be considered recruiting. Maybe its advertising at a very opportune time, but still not recruiting. TSSAA will have to make a major revision to its recruiting definition before it comes even close. There's a huge difference in advertising one's school, and recruiting. It gets old listening to those who try to blur the lines.

 

 

I agree.

 

In addition, we need to be careful not to confuse recruiting with our basic American right under the Constitution called "Free Speech." Every school, regardless of whether it is private or public, whether a parent, teacher, or coach, has the right to promote itself and advertise. It would be absurd to think that a school or any other organization would not strive to grow and be bigger and better and that the right of free expression could be denied it.

 

The problem with recruiting isn't a coach asking a player to consider coming to his school. The problem is when he calls him on the phone every week, gives gifts, puts on the pressure, etc.

[cbg]

I think most people that want a split do so because they simply don`t like private schools. Some have suggested its because of a socio-economic envy of a perceived conception that somehow private schools have something they don`t have. Or maybe it`s because they think that private schools have kids that belong to other schools. Whatever the reason I think most people that want the split don`t care about fairness like they claim they do. I think they just don`t like private schools.

 

Whether folks like it or not that private schools have no zones, the fact is that there are just gonna be more and more open zoned and magnet public schools in the future. There will never be an exact level playing field. If these split proponents were really sincere in the desire to make things better they would be embracing some sort of merit system.

 

 

VG,

 

The problems as I see them is that the "private school haters" do so because they don't understand private schools, what they are or why anyone would send their child to one. Those same people know very little about private schools other than what they have been told by other people. I only see one way for the public & private schools to be brought back together and it all hinges on Brentwood Academy and what they want to do. We all know that they won the legal battle but the TSSAA decided to appeal the verdict. If BA wins the appeal (which I see no reason that they will not) then they will be in the drivers seat with the TSSAA. The TSSAA will owe them a ton of money and IMO they will cut a deal to drop SOME OF THE LEGAL FEES if the TSSAA will place everyone back together. The TSSAA will accept the deal and place everyone back together with 4 or 5 classification for football. They will also look at using the "MERIT SYSTEM" at that time which IMO most of the private schools and some of the public schools would be in favor of. If the TSSAA and its member schools decide that they would rather pay the legal fees they will then have to send a check to Brentwood Academy and its legal defense team. I am not sure but I don't think that they will have any type of payment plan and the schools will have to cut a check for their % of the invoice within 30 days. Some people have suggested that the legal fees could reach 5 million dollars or more.

Edited December 11, 2006 by cbg

[uncfan13]

The year Red Bank won the state championship, they rented a billboard on Dayton Boulevard and put a team picture on it. That was school and town pride. When McCallie won state the rented a billboard on Dodds Avenue and placed a picture of the state championship team on it that ,no doubt, was recruiting.