Will Temple's problems finally cause a public-private split?

[Baldcoach]

Maj-If you switch the students from the state's top performing school, as far as ACT scores, etc, and from the lowest performing, how do you think it would change the performance of each school? Would you admit factors such as one or two-parent households, percentage of parents who graduated college, race, family income, play a large part in success or relative lack of success at schools across the state, public or private? I say those factors are more important than the school attending, as far as predicting and seeing success of individuals.

 

 

Indian,

 

Your argument that switching students from the lowest performing publics to the highest performing privates would certainly change test scores is self evident...I'm not sure what it is supposed to prove, though. In fact, your whole position is somewhat confusing. You use environmental factors to bolster your argument, but then seem to discount the smaller classrooms and higher teacher/student ratios that are part of the private school environment. Either environment works for/against student performance or not, you can't have your Breakfast Program and eat it too...

 

If we want to see if private schools in Tennessee (which is the place we are all concerned about) are as good as the publics in Tennessee, perhaps we should compare the smaller religious privates (which are non-selective in admissions and reflect the same ethnic/racial makeup of the middle/upper middle classes in their area) with the suburban publics (which also are primarily made up of middle/upper middle class kids). In Chattanooga, a valid comparison might be Boyd or CCHS with Soddy Daisy or Hixson or Ooltewah. I don't know if the data are available, but I would think that kind of comparison would carry more weight for either side of the argument than one based on very low performing publics vs. elite privates or one based on magnets/National Schools of Excellence and very small non-accredited privates.

[Baldcoach]

As someone who has had a very insightful view of private education, I think that many people might be amazed at the number of outdated textbooks and lack of technology as well as physical resources that some private schools offer their students. Some public schools can offer a wider array of resources to their students. Many of the parents that leave private education for Williamson Co. point to this fact as the primary reason they choose the public county system.

 

 

In fact, except for the large elite privates almost all publics in or near a major metro area can offer more resources than privates. Their teachers are paid more, they have larger facilities and better equipment. Of course, Georgia thought that better facilities = better education too. That is why they piled billions of their lottery money into upgrading their facilities (which are super-uber nice). But alas, their test scores actually fell...so it seems that nicer facilities are not a major factor in how well students or schools perform.

[OLD PIRATE]

Re: " There are many very successful public schools in this country where parental support meets or exceeds the private schools. "

 

A more accurate statement would be there are some. They are in the minority. You can tip toe around the obvious, public education as a WHOLE is bad and getting worse, but I doubt seriously you will convince anyone the so called success stories you cite are anything more than an exception. Like I said before, parents are not paying their property taxes AND forking over thousands of dollars more to a private school for no reason. The root causes are many and convoluted, but the bottom line is that public education in this country is broken and can’t be fixed. The entire system needs to be scrapped in favor of something not run by government functionaries. Obviously parents aren't going to successfully battle teachers unions and the entrenched bureaucracies so they take charge of their own kids.

 

Old Pirate asks, how do you know "public education as a whole is bad and getting worse. Just wondering why you think/feel you have all the right info. Questions: (1) Was your education public or private ? (2) Have you ever taught at a public school? (3) Have your children attended a public school ?

Privates need to be in a division of their own. Recruiting on a small scale or large scale is and always will be a part of programs. I support recruiting if you admit to it, but a lot of privates do not admit to recruiting just like TT. It is not a secret of Boyd Bucs recruiting. Matt Peardon was a jasper kid who transfered to BB and had tuition paid by a booster. The sad thing is they proclaim to be christian schools and continue to lie about their programs. Ask some privates who admit to recruiting who they have to recruit against. The latest Chatt private program is S/Dale with their "breakfast program".

[Indian]

Indian,

 

Your argument that switching students from the lowest performing publics to the highest performing privates would certainly change test scores is self evident...I'm not sure what it is supposed to prove, though. In fact, your whole position is somewhat confusing. You use environmental factors to bolster your argument, but then seem to discount the smaller classrooms and higher teacher/student ratios that are part of the private school environment. Either environment works for/against student performance or not, you can't have your Breakfast Program and eat it too...

 

If we want to see if private schools in Tennessee (which is the place we are all concerned about) are as good as the publics in Tennessee, perhaps we should compare the smaller religious privates (which are non-selective in admissions and reflect the same ethnic/racial makeup of the middle/upper middle classes in their area) with the suburban publics (which also are primarily made up of middle/upper middle class kids). In Chattanooga, a valid comparison might be Boyd or CCHS with Soddy Daisy or Hixson or Ooltewah. I don't know if the data are available, but I would think that kind of comparison would carry more weight for either side of the argument than one based on very low performing publics vs. elite privates or one based on magnets/National Schools of Excellence and very small non-accredited privates.

 

 

 

The point was an individual student's background, in particular if it's a stable background, is a more telling indicator than if he/she attends a public or private. I question the non-selective description of the privates mentioned, when students at such schools must behave decently or they're booted. Some in publics literally won't do classwork when it's handed to them, won't mark one response on a test and would rather take a zero. That's if they come to school at all. Those types tend to bring down numbers, diluting the work of those who actually want to make something of themselves.

[robjim]

Old Pirate asks, how do you know "public education as a whole is bad and getting worse. Just wondering why you think/feel you have all the right info. Questions: (1) Was your education public or private ? (2) Have you ever taught at a public school? (3) Have your children attended a public school ?

Privates need to be in a division of their own. Recruiting on a small scale or large scale is and always will be a part of programs. I support recruiting if you admit to it, but a lot of privates do not admit to recruiting just like TT. It is not a secret of Boyd Bucs recruiting. Matt Peardon was a jasper kid who transfered to BB and had tuition paid by a booster. The sad thing is they proclaim to be christian schools and continue to lie about their programs. Ask some privates who admit to recruiting who they have to recruit against. The latest Chatt private program is S/Dale with their "breakfast program".

 

 

Ok, then where do you put the publics that recruit?

[blueandgoldfan]

Old Pirate asks, how do you know "public education as a whole is bad and getting worse. Just wondering why you think/feel you have all the right info. Questions: (1) Was your education public or private ? (2) Have you ever taught at a public school? (3) Have your children attended a public school ?

Privates need to be in a division of their own. Recruiting on a small scale or large scale is and always will be a part of programs. I support recruiting if you admit to it, but a lot of privates do not admit to recruiting just like TT. It is not a secret of Boyd Bucs recruiting. Matt Peardon was a jasper kid who transfered to BB and had tuition paid by a booster. The sad thing is they proclaim to be christian schools and continue to lie about their programs. Ask some privates who admit to recruiting who they have to recruit against. The latest Chatt private program is S/Dale with their "breakfast program".

 

 

i have to ask, old pirate.....

 

how do you know this about matt peardon and do you have proof? to me, this is one of the problems with the whole issue of recruiting (private AND public). the newspaper articles that deal with temple's issues have gathered substantial details with all involved parties and while we may not know every detail of the situation, we can see some proof of wrongdoing. i just wish that people would substantiate their claims of recruiting with real facts or proof. maybe that's asking too much.

[Bighurt]

Ok, then where do you put the publics that recruit?

 

Public schools don't recruit. They "attract students drawn to successful programs".

[robjim]

Public schools don't recruit. They "attract students drawn to successful programs".

 

 

Oh, ok, got it. Then the chili suppers and the pancake breakfasts they serve are just celebrating a successful program. It is becoming clearer.

[itzme]

Just slightly off-topic, but I couldn't help but notice the small article (see hyperlnk) in the Brentwood Journal today. I particularly draw your attention to the last line of the article, which I had to chuckle at. Private school advantages...yeah right!

 

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...4/1181/COUNTY09

[Baldcoach]

Old Pirate asks, how do you know "public education as a whole is bad and getting worse. Just wondering why you think/feel you have all the right info. Questions: (1) Was your education public or private ? (2) Have you ever taught at a public school? (3) Have your children attended a public school ?

Privates need to be in a division of their own. Recruiting on a small scale or large scale is and always will be a part of programs. I support recruiting if you admit to it, but a lot of privates do not admit to recruiting just like TT. It is not a secret of Boyd Bucs recruiting. Matt Peardon was a jasper kid who transfered to BB and had tuition paid by a booster. The sad thing is they proclaim to be christian schools and continue to lie about their programs. Ask some privates who admit to recruiting who they have to recruit against. The latest Chatt private program is S/Dale with their "breakfast program".

 

 

Peardon was not recruited. This is a lie. You need to retract it, admit you haven't a clue, and apologize to the coaches and players you just insulted with your slander.

 

Peardon came to Boyd in 8th grade, his family moved him for reasons of their own. The coaches didn't even know who he was before he arrived.

[Baldcoach]

The point was an individual student's background, in particular if it's a stable background, is a more telling indicator than if he/she attends a public or private. I question the non-selective description of the privates mentioned, when students at such schools must behave decently or they're booted. Some in publics literally won't do classwork when it's handed to them, won't mark one response on a test and would rather take a zero. That's if they come to school at all. Those types tend to bring down numbers, diluting the work of those who actually want to make something of themselves.

 

I agree that private school kids as a general rule are more motivated. The question still remains, however...are they more motivated because they were born that way or because of their school environment? Chicken or egg...I would say a little of both.

[FadePattern]

Just for the sake of clearing up any misconceptions could someone explain how the "breakfast program" actually works?

Also do any of the Chattanooga schools use work aid programs?

I would really like to hear answers to both questions but hopefully from someone at the schools that actually knows what the situations are.