TSSAA to look at open zones, privates, new classifications possible

[Swipes]

It amazes me that all these complicated scenario's appear as alternative plans that "might" work. Most include vague terms like open zone urban public's, and such, that TSSAA could never, ever police. Why not just keep it simple...privates in their own class and publics in another? Private schools select their students from a large pool of applicants( from a much larger area), and are able to cut off enrollment at a specific number. Public schools enrollment is controlled by the number of school age children within the busing area. This difference alone creates an insurmountable advantage for the privates within the rules as they are. Do all privates take advantage...no, but the advantage is there just the same, and some definitely do manipulate the advantage to the fullest extent. I just don't get how it could be that confusing when there is such a built in line of division to follow.

I agree with you publics vs publics and private vs private. Your statement of public schools enrollment is controlled by the number of school age children within the busing area is not a factual statement tho.

[tradertwo]

I agree with you publics vs publics and private vs private. Your statement of public schools enrollment is controlled by the number of school age children within the busing area is not a factual statement tho.

I don't like over explaining my points of view, so I didn't explain enough...public schools are not able to deny admission to any potential student within their area, therefore my statement is factual. I realize that you mean open zone systems accept students from outside this "zone", but their numbers only add to the accumulated total.

   I also feel that the open vs. closed zone system argument isn't TSSAA's issue to decide, as closed zone systems are that way by choice. I'm somewhat vague on state policy, but if a system had a school not meeting state minimums for academic's, and another meeting those guidelines, busing had to be provided for students to attend the latter from the former not more than three years ago( personal experience). TSSAA guidelines were in effect that an athlete must sit out a year, but how would that affect a closed zone system? 

Edited May 26, 2015 by tradertwo

[Swipes]

I don't like over explaining my points of view, so I didn't explain enough...public schools are not able to deny admission to any potential student within their area, therefore my statement is factual. I realize that you mean open zone systems accept students from outside this "zone", but their numbers only add to the accumulated total.

I also feel that the open vs. closed zone system argument isn't TSSAA's issue to decide, as closed zone systems are that way by choice. I'm somewhat vague on state policy, but if a system had a school not meeting state minimums for academic's, and another meeting those guidelines, busing had to be provided for students to attend the latter from the former not more than three years ago( personal experience). TSSAA guidelines were in effect that an athlete must sit out a year, but how would that affect a closed zone system?

You are absolutely correct that a public school can't deny access to anyone zone to that school but it doesn't mean that it's "controlled" by the busing area in certain schools system. In the county were I was raised if you paid county taxes you had the choice to go to any county school you wanted to as long as you provided your own transportation. No acceptance was needed and no tuition either. I could live on the one side of town and enroll in a school on the other side and they had to take me. Edited May 26, 2015 by Swipes

[tradertwo]

You are absolutely correct that a public school can't deny access to anyone zone to that school but it doesn't mean that it's "controlled" by the busing area in certain schools system. In the county were I was raised if you paid county taxes you had the choice to go to any county school you wanted to as long as you provided your own transportation. No acceptance was needed and no tuition either. I could live on the one side of town and enroll in a school on the other side and they had to take me.

And for classification purposes you would have added one number to the total enrollment...they couldn't have deny'd access to another student to accept you and keep their original enrollment.

   Like I said, closed zone systems are that way by choice. I believe that it was your right to choose the school to attend if your parent's taxes funded both.

   In my county it's the same...even have a separate city system, and those kids have a choice of city or county in elementary/middle school. Don't really understand how boards of education can force attendance to one specific school over another if taxes fund both.

Edited May 26, 2015 by tradertwo

[cbg]

Its their own fault dating back to the Brentwood Aca days in AA. Look at how many kids are on financial aid from the privates. How many of those play sports? Quite a few. Privates give great education but very few go after the gifted kids they go after athletes. It has been an uneven playing field and nobody blames the publics from wanting to play them. They created it so they can deal with it.

Most of the larger D2 schools were members of the TSSAA since the organization was founded. Yes, many of the problems go back to when Brentwood Academy won multiple football championships in AA and then moved up to AAA and defeated a very strong Gary Rankin coached Riverdale team. Before the split the financial aid giving schools could only have three (3) athletes receiving financial aid participate on a varsity football team. When the split took place the financial aid giving schools decided that they would give as much financial aid as a person qualified for and all students at the school would be allowed to participate in varsity athletics. Just a few years ago a student from McCallie accepted an academic scholarship and therefore was not allowed to participate in cross country or track & field. This athlete just happened to be one of the top distance runners in the Southeast. It's not all about athletics and if you tour the top D2 schools you will see that they truly operate like small colleges with their facilities, academics and athletics. Most of the faculty at the D2 schools have their masters and are working on a PHD. It's difficult for a young person with only a BS and no teaching experience to be hired by them. This is why many of the educators start in the public school system to gain some valuable experience and then later move to a D2 school a few years later. Edited May 26, 2015 by cbg

[Swipes]

And for classification purposes you would have added one number to the total enrollment...they couldn't have deny'd access to another student to accept you and keep their original enrollment.

Like I said, closed zone systems are that way by choice. I believe that it was your right to choose the school to attend if your parent's taxes funded both.

In my county it's the same...even have a separate city system, and those kids have a choice of city or county in elementary/middle school. Don't really understand how boards of education can force attendance to one specific school over another if taxes fund both.

Your last statement about how you don't really understand how boards of education can force attendance to one specific school over another if taxes fund both, I agree and they don't do that in the county I was raised. Not all public school systems are ran the same way. To say that the enrollment is controlled by busing of the area still does not hold true in my county. No you can not deny someone zoned to that school true, but they can't deny me neither as long as my taxes are paid. They would take more of the tax money for education that was going to the school I was zoned for and give it the school I decided to attend. Ex. If 100 parents/students decided to provide their own Transpertation and go to the same school how is that controlling enrollment by the busing area? That could bump you front one division to another depending on your enrollment already, that's not controlled. Edited May 26, 2015 by Swipes

[workinprogress]

Cbg you know it was because recruiting. And your view of private school education is a bit flawed in my opinion. It's all about the ratio. Much easier to teach seven to ten kids rather than twenty-five to thirty. Also, most teachers either have advanced degrees or they are working on them. This is not exclusive to private schools. MBA 68%, BA 65%, Ensworth 66%. These numbers are no better than what you would find at HF, MLK, or even EN. Oh and most public school teachers that move on to private schools do so because it is much easier. I don't know any teachers that have ever said hey I'm going to teach here for awhile but I'm hoping to build my resume so I can get on at BA. What a joke.

Edited May 26, 2015 by workinprogress

[GWAVE1]

Cbg you know it was because recruiting. And your view of private school education is a bit flawed in my opinion. It's all about the ratio. Much easier to teach seven to ten kids rather than twenty-five to thirty. Also, most teachers either have advanced degrees or they are working on them. This is not exclusive to private schools. MBA 68%, BA 65%, Ensworth 66%. These numbers are no better than what you would find at HF, MLK, or even EN. Oh and most public school teachers that move on to private schools do so because it is much easier. I don't know any teachers that have ever said hey I'm going to teach here for awhile but I'm hoping to build my resume so I can get on at BA. What a joke.

I agree with you. In fact most teachers that I know that moved on to privates to teach did it because they retired from the public school for retirement then picked up a job at a private for continued money. No telling how many did this from Gallatin to JPII.

Now let's get back to the athletic issue. If you attend BA you are required to participate in athletics. Check their charter. That is one reason why BA was created when the headmaster from BGA left. I heard numbers last year from McCallie, Baylor and Webb and all have around or over 300 kids on financial aid. How many of these participate in sports? Let's face it, the privates created this mess and if they have to drive to Alaska for a game then so be it.

[GWAVE1]

Cbg, Brentwood Aca never competed in the AAA format. They moved up to 5-A after the TSSAA went to 5 classes. Yes they did beat a Riverdale team that was strong but with a team that Carlton Flatt even said was the best team he ever coached. They failed to win a 4-A state title yet still competed with the top teams. If they would have moved up in the late 80's instead of rough shotting the smaller schools like they did then I doubt you would have seen all this public/private debate. They proved they could play with the larger schools but they would not win every year. That was the big issue. Now look at the state of the game. Constantly in flux and even more recruiting which we all knew was going on 30 years ago.

[tradertwo]

Your last statement about how you don't really understand how boards of education can force attendance to one specific school over another if taxes fund both, I agree and they don't do that in the county I was raised. Not all public school systems are ran the same way. To say that the enrollment is controlled by busing of the area still does not hold true in my county. No you can not deny someone zoned to that school true, but they can't deny me neither as long as my taxes are paid. They would take more of the tax money for education that was going to the school I was zoned for and give it the school I decided to attend. Ex. If 100 parents/students decided to provide their own Transpertation and go to the same school how is that controlling enrollment by the busing area? That could bump you front one division to another depending on your enrollment already, that's not controlled.

LOL, I think that we have had our wires crossed with some communication problems. That's exactly the point that I was making. Think about it...I meant that the enrollment could not be controlled by administration (as privates do) because of the local population's "automatic" admittance, thus the student population was determined by the busing zone.

[Swipes]

LOL, I think that we have had our wires crossed with some communication problems. That's exactly the point that I was making. Think about it...I meant that the enrollment could not be controlled by administration (as privates do) because of the local population's "automatic" admittance, thus the student population was determined by the busing zone.

Busing zone is were we disagree, busing zone is were the bus will pick you up for a certain zone. You cannot control a student population by a busing zone in my county. The student population is not determined by the busing zone in my example. It's determined by who wants to attend what school and who can provide their own Transportation. Just because I pay county taxes and in a certain schools "busing zone" doesn't mean I count toward their student population at their school. If what you said was true then the school I wanted to go to would have to Bus me to that school. That's the whole concept of open zones. I'm still in a public school just not the exact "busing zone". Edited May 26, 2015 by Swipes

[tradertwo]

Busing zone is were we disagree, busing zone is were the bus will pick you up for a certain zone. You cannot control a student population by a busing zone in my county. The student population is not determined by the busing zone in my example. It's determined by who wants to attend what school and who can provide their own Transportation. Just because I pay county taxes and in a certain schools "busing zone" doesn't mean I count toward their student population at their school. If what you said was true then the school I wanted to go to would have to Bus me to that school. That's the whole concept of open zones. I'm still in a public school just not the exact "busing zone".

OK,OK I give up...still think you're splitting hairs because very few provide transportation when the bus is available, but for the sake of argument you are right.