Fayetteville to forfeit 6 wins

[Solomon]

Just now, rlh said:

Childress was going by the paperwork turned in by FV.  That's the problem.  The principal and coach should have known about transfer rules.  They turned it in with incorrect boxes checked and got called on it later.

It really is that simple. it sucks, but it's that simple.

[PullinGuard]

13 minutes ago, Solomon said:

No they didn't. They just have to make up their minds before freshman year or sit a year if they decide to change.

For transfers they did.  Which is all that 'territory' refers to.  The term is unrelated to kids who do not transfer.

So, if someone  already in HS moves from Nashville to Swanson Drive in Fayetteville, they cannot be immediately eligibile at LCHS any longer.  The county doesn't pick up kids for LCHS in town.

Your last sentence is interesting, too.  You're right, it's always been assumed you have to sit if you move from FHS to LCHS or vice versa, regardless of any change in address.  No longer.  If the county doesn't pick up in town, they lose Fayetteville proper as territory.  FHS has ONLY Fayetteville proper as territory.  So, a kid in town who attends FHS can now move a mile out of town with immediate eligibility at LCHS.  And vice versa.  An LCHS kid in the county can move inside the city limits and be immediately eligible at FHS.  It's suddenly very easy to be in one territory and out of the other and then have the opposite when you move in or out of town.  Couldn't do that when everyone thought all of LC was both school's territory.  Woops.

That is, unless the county school board starts picking kids up by bus in town.  Then, they get that territory back for transfers.  Under that scenario, a transfer from outside the county once could go either place with immediate eligibility.  And in-county transfers would have to sit a year again. 

Going to be a mess if they don't clarify the rule. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by PullinGuard

[PullinGuard]

20 minutes ago, rlh said:

Childress was going by the paperwork turned in by FV.  That's the problem.  The principal and coach should have known about transfer rules.  They turned it in with incorrect boxes checked and got called on it later.

It still 100% hinges on the definition of 'territory'. 

Two BOC members STILL disagree on that point.  Woudn't you think they would 'know about transfer rules'?  It's not trivial, as many would like to think.  BOC members disagree after studying it, but everyone should know ahead of time?

I seriously doubt that Lincoln County and Fayetteville are the only two systems in TN that don't pick up in certain areas with buses (Tullahoma has none, as best I can tell).  I know many don't see it, but this has opened a can of worms.  If they don't clarify the rules, we'll hear from it again some October or so.

Edited November 5, 2019 by PullinGuard

[tradertwo]

24 minutes ago, Solomon said:

No they didn't. They just have to make up their minds before freshman year or sit a year if they decide to change.

Or the county system could just run a bus through the city.

[tradertwo]

8 minutes ago, PullinGuard said:

It still 100% hinges on the definition of 'territory'. 

Two BOC members STILL disagree on that point.  Woudn't you think they would 'know about transfer rules'?  It's not trivial, as many would like to think.  BOC members disagree after studying it, but everyone should know ahead of time?

I seriously doubt that Lincoln County and Fayetteville are the only two systems in TN that don't pick up in certain areas with buses (Tullahoma has none, as best I can tell).  I know many don't see it, but this has opened a can of worms.  If they don't clarify the rules, we'll hear from it again some October or so.

That's the point that you've been missing from the inception... we're talking about THEIR association. They make, interpret, and enforce the rules as they collectively see fit. No one is required to join their association, you must apply, you must pay for the privilege, and you must agree to abide by their rules... you never had a chance.

[PullinGuard]

17 minutes ago, tradertwo said:

That's the point that you've been missing from the inception... we're talking about THEIR association. They make, interpret, and enforce the rules as they collectively see fit. No one is required to join their association, you must apply, you must pay for the privilege, and you must agree to abide by their rules... you never had a chance.

Oh, I never believed that logic would necessarily rule the day in an appeal.  Or even matter much, if at all. 

If this had stayed in court, they would have to show that they are applying their rules correctly.  And that's where logic matters - because they are also required to follow their own rules.  You cannot argue that the rule is unfair, unreasonable, etc., but you can absolutely argue that they are misapplying it.  In that case, logic, precedent, etc. would absolutely matter.

Now, it's easy to understand why Fayetteville won't try again to go that route.  Would cost a ton of money and you'd likely never get a fair call on or off the field again.

 

Simply being able to enforce an interpretation doesn't mean it's logical or in accordance with the intent of their rule.

Edited November 5, 2019 by PullinGuard

[Guy001]

36 minutes ago, PullinGuard said:

...It's suddenly very easy to be in one territory and out of the other and then have the opposite when you move in or out of town.  Couldn't do that when everyone thought all of LC was both school's territory.  Woops.

That could make things interesting.

[RocketHouse]

So based on this ruling:

1. If after 9th grade an athlete moves just outside the city limits of Fayetteville and wants to attend and play sports at FHS he/she must sit out a year but the school system has no problem enrolling them?

2. If after 9th grade an athlete moves just inside the city limits of Fayetteville and wants to attend and play sports at Lincoln County High he/she must sit out a year but the school system has no problem enrolling them?

3. If the FHS school board or the Lincoln County school boards change the school bus routes for 2020/21 this ruling is irrelevant? Effectively, FHS school board could have made a special bus route in August to go by the player's house and he is eligible?

4. An athlete at FHS can now after 9th grade move across the street outside of city limits where the buses don't run and immediately be eligible at Lincoln County High? And vice versa? 

These two schools are less than a mile apart as the crow flies and directly compete with each other for students. 

[PullinGuard]

2 minutes ago, Guy001 said:

That could make things interesting.

It will, unless I'm wrong about Lincoln County not picking up in town, or unless they start. 

I guess that the TSSAA says they have bus routes since they drive through town without picking anyone up.  That's obviously a farce, but they could say that and enforce it, I'm sure. 

[MCHSBigBlue]

Just what is a system-wide public school in the TSSAA definition of  Territory? Would Fayetteville not be one?

Territory – For a public school, the “territory” of the school is the geographic boundaries and bus routes of the area served by that school as established by the local board of education. For a system-wide public school, or a homeschool student attending the “territory” of the school is the geographic boundaries of the school system. For a non-public school, the “territory” of the school is the area within a twenty (20) mile radius from the school.

Edited November 5, 2019 by MCHSBigBlue

[PullinGuard]

14 minutes ago, Salem said:

So based on this ruling:

1. If after 9th grade an athlete moves just outside the city limits of Fayetteville and wants to attend and play sports at FHS he/she must sit out a year but the school system has no problem enrolling them?

2. If after 9th grade an athlete moves just inside the city limits of Fayetteville and wants to attend and play sports at Lincoln County High he/she must sit out a year but the school system has no problem enrolling them?

3. If the FHS school board or the Lincoln County school boards change the school bus routes for 2020/21 this ruling is irrelevant? Effectively, FHS school board could have made a special bus route in August to go by the player's house and he is eligible?

4. An athlete at FHS can now after 9th grade move across the street outside of city limits where the buses don't run and immediately be eligible at Lincoln County High? And vice versa? 

These two schools are less than a mile apart as the crow flies and directly compete with each other for students. 

1) Yes, if moving from out of County.  Assuming LC has no bus routes in town (as I currently think), the city of Fayetteville is now out of their territory for transfer purposes.

2) Yes, if moving from out of County and if LCHS doesn't pick up kids by bus in town (or doesn't start doing so).  Or unless the TSSAA says the county has bus routes since they drive through town, but don't pick anyone up.  That's ridiculous, but they could say it and enforce it, I'm sure.  If so, though, Fayetteville could just drive an empty bus around out in the county almost as easily. 

3) Yes.  Fayetteville could say for next year they'll come pick you up from any address in the county, charge you a fee to do so if needed, call it a 'bus route' and thereby restore that territory, it appears to me.  Not sure if you'd get away with obviously tailoring it for one kid, nor should you.

4) Yes, unless bus situations change or unless the TSSAA says that buses driving through town with no pickups constitutes a 'bus route'.  Not sure even they would try to pull that.  But, would be much easier for the county system to do that than for the city system to do something similar, just due to size and costs.  For those reasons, I could see the County as being way more likely to do it. 

 

They do indeed compete, so I wouldn't be surprised to see bus changes based on this.

Edited November 5, 2019 by PullinGuard

[PullinGuard]

22 minutes ago, MCHSBigBlue said:

Just what is a system-wide public school in the TSSAA definition of  Territory? Would Fayetteville not be one?

There's a Q/A section that touches on that.  Says area-wide schools are schools similar, but not limited to magnet schools, etc., that have no bus routes but which are open to all kids within the system.

Good question - took me a few days to figure that out myself (with @Southtowner 's help.

 

I think that's the clarification that's needed.  Remove 'bus routes' and add  'zone specific bus routes' and add a high school in a single HS system as an example.  Would clear all of this up.  For Fayetteville, LCHS, Tullahoma, Coffee County, and no telling how many others.

 

***

Q. What is meant by the term “system-wide” public school in the definition of “territory” as defined in the Definitions? A. A system-wide public school is a school without geographic zones or bus routes that draws students throughout the school system. Examples of system-wide public schools are, but not limited to: Chattanooga School for the Arts & Sciences, Martin Luther King, the magnet portion of Liberty Technology High School, etc.

Edited November 5, 2019 by PullinGuard