Any news on how the TSSAA vote went today?

[swamp]

Calm down, coach, I was just asking the question because I knew that a final outcome had not been determined.

 

As for democracy, that's a whole other debate, but I've never been under the impression that TSSAA is a democracy. Not really sure what "form" of organization it is. It has a legislative council and a board of control, but I have no idea how the members of either become such. The vote was non-binding, so they really don't have to do anything, do they?

[DelTavian]

I say we throw out the rules about transfers and recruiting and throw everybody back together and play.

 

The TSSAA does nothing about the recruiting that goes on in some public schools so why should the privates be cast in a bad light? And I really mean that. It goes on in lots of places but the private schools are the only ones who pay any price. There are public schools with championships that we all know are bought and paid for with recruited players.

 

Soooooo...... let ye who has the most money to buy the most cars for the most 16 year olds win the most gold balls.

 

Either enforce the rules or throw them out.

 

Attica! Attica! Attica!!

 

Del.

[ELA]

The TSSAA is still an independent organization. If you guys will read the text of the Supreme Court ruling it said that the organization "may" be considered a "State Actor" only as it applies to the question of "Freedom of Speech." The Supreme Court did not rule on the merits of the case and they sent the entire matter back down to the lower courts who have asked the two parties to settle "out of court." Read the exact wording of the justices ruling and you will see they didn't want to rule on the merits of the case. They were not asked to settle anything except the question of wether the TSSAA could be sued for violating the "freedom of Speech" clause of the US Constitution since the governing body (i.e. boards) represented only public schools.

 

Let me try to simplify a very complex legal matter for everyone... The Supreme Court Ruling was based on the fact that only public school administrators served on the TSSAA Board of Control and Legislative board. If BA had not been a private school the matter would not have gone to the Supreme Court! Therefore, a case could have been made to exclude all private schools based on this ruling alone. If the TSSAA does not have the right to govern itself and enforce all of the policies established by its members because some of them are private schools, then one of two things must be done to eliminate the "state actor" conditions. Either the private schools must be given a percentage of the seats on the boards or the organization must be reshaped in such a manner that private schools control their activities and public schools control their activities (thereby bringing about a total split within the organization itself). When the ruling came down from the supreme court there was a lot of talk about simply dissolving the TSSAA and establishing two new organizations, one for public schools and one for private schools. The plans are still out there and if either side doesn't like what the TSSAA does in this matter, they can elect to do whatever they want.

 

I guess what really bugs me about this whole issue is the fact that so many people feel compelled to cry out, "If I don't get my way, I will take you to court and sue" This drives me crazy because it doesn't really solve anything. The TSSAA is still a private organization of schools. Nothing the Supreme Court did will change that and all it effects is the composition of the organization. If the Board provides a percentage of representation to include a couple of private school representatives then the term "State Actor" can not and will not be applicable. That will probably be a part of the eventual settlement in the lawsuit.

 

Let's stop using the term "State Actor" and I'll Sue you if I don't get my way" in this discussion. It really doesn't apply to this debate!

 

[Edited by ELA on 12-6-02 7:46A]

 

[ELA]

I'm going to move this thread to the public/private boards soon!

 

By the way bbsesq.... NC, Mississippi, and Texas are all split. No law suits there! Schools in other states have always been split. Some states are even divided more than this. Some states have separate organizations for just their larger cities. Some have separate organizations for just their Catholic schools. If the private schools decide to start their own organization... let them go!

[Edited by ELA on 12-6-02 7:55A]

 

[realsoccer]

The characteristic that separates the TSSAA from other states' athletic governing bodies is that the Supreme Court said it was part of state government, a "state actor". Other states' athletic governing institutions might have the same relationship with their governments but in their cases the issue hasn't been adjudicated. So when you say that the TSSAA is a "private organization", you're incorrect. The Supreme Court said that the TSSAA is effectively part of state government. A high school, public or private, can't participate in high school athletics without being a member of the TSSAA even though the TSSAA holds itself out as a voluntary organization.

 

All this sounds archaic until the rubber meets the road. If private division 1A schools have been obeying the same rules that public 1A schools obey, I don't believe they can be arbitrarily treated differently. By coercing them into to DII, the state of Tennessee through the TSSAA arbitrarily makes participating in athletics more expensive for them than their public neighbor. That is where equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution comes into effect.

 

The deferral of the split by the Board of Control wasn't an act of procrastination, it was an attempt to figure out how to discriminate against private schools and not spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars litigating this issue.

 

It's ironic how this whole issue transcends the petty jealousies of public school supporters and the arrogance of privates and ultimately may be a constitutional issue.

[ELA]

The courts have said that all the organization has to do to lift the "state Actor" tag is to allow representation on the board with a percentage of representation equal to the membership of private schools within the organization. If this is done, the state actor tag will be lifted an all other issues will be mute. As for the legal matters... you and I will just view them differently. I will say this, "If the TSSAA can't operate as an independent organization under the law, it should be dissolved and this would solve the matter." This would allow both the private schools and public schools to create their own organizations. If this is what needs to be done, so be it. Let's stop this stupid litigation and "state actor" argument. I promise you it has no effect on the matter of Division I and Division II. I don't have a law degree but I have spent some time studying the law and this issue (about five years). A private school would be hard pressed to prove that they were being discriminated against by these actions. It is a completely different issue from the BA issue. Brentwood Academy was clearly violated the rules that had been established by the TSSAA in regards to contact with students from another school. That whole lawsuit has been a farce! BA got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and they went crying to the courts. This is a different matter all together and any attempt to link the two is ridiculous. The private schools can start their own organization if they don't want to compete in DII. These continued threats of lawsuits notwithstanding. I will promise you one thing that is an absolute truth... if another lawsuit us brought against the TSSAA by a private school over any of these issues, you can look for many public schools to begin searching for a way to start their own organization. The majority (70%) of the schools in Tennessee want to have the two types of schools placed in separate divisions. Again... this will happen in 2005.

[realsoccer]

Because of budgetary constraints which will trump any other considerations, public schools aren't going to start up another organization just to shed themselves of private schools. I've already consulted a couple of constitutional attorneys who believe the "equal protection" argument has merit. I would expect them to solicit the private schools if the complete split is made.

 

Please don't confuse this type of litigation with class action torts regarding cigarettes and Redux. This litigation is to avoid a group of small private schools having to spend money they don't have travelling, etc. It becomes a business decision whether to spend money litigating this issue or spending money in perpetuity travelling the state looking for games.

 

Without this hanging over their heads, why wouldn't the board of control simply followed the will of the majority and voted them out. I sure wasn't because of some soft spot in their collective hearts. They would cut the throats of private schools in a heart beat!

[Guest FatherRyanBBall]

What I think is the most unfair thing I have seen is that we cannot do that cool "scrolly-thing" that ELA can do!

[JaxMan]

I think he should be a Division II moderator...he has an unfair advantage....only kidding.

[ELA]

Equal protection for what? Private schools are not provided with any special constitutional protections under the federal constitution! In fact, the federal government has no constitutional authority over any matters of education except as provided through the overused "commerce clause." I'll go once step farther and say that no one is promised an education under the federal constitution. This is not a constitutional question! There is absolutely nothing in the constitution or the law that protects private schools or members of any organization from being placed in a classification based on their financial structure or charter. In fact, there are hundreds of organizations that are established to do just this! We have to divide schools in some manner and there are at least twelve states that already divide schools by their types of charters and other criteria. To say that there is something unfair about this type of division would be to give the Federal government the right to regulate all athletic competition throughout the nation. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN! What has been discussed is to allow the TSSAA to file for bankruptcy protection and to allow the state of Tennessee to take over control of public school athletics. If this is done, ALL PRIVATE SCHOOLS WILL BE LEFT OUT! There is no way in the world that public schools will be forced to compete with private schools if the state gets involved. I for one am so very tired of the litigation and threats of litigation to try to force public schools to continue to play against private schools. This is exactly why the split is going to happen! Coaches and administrators are tired of this type of rhetoric. I'll say it again, if another lawsuit is filed, it will bring about the end of the TSSAA and the end result will be the same... A TOTAL SPLIT!

[pujo]

Why don't we sue the TSSAA for making us compete with schools ,that have a different set of rules.

[VolunteerGeneral]

Posted by pujo:

Why don't we sue the TSSAA for making us compete with schools ,that have a different set of rules.

 

 

Do you mean that schools like Jackson Northside which has a certain segment of Madison County to get kids from suing because the TSSAA makes them compete against schools like Maryville that gets kids from anywhere? Or maybe a school like Adamsville that gets it kids from a portion of McNairy County being forced by the TSSAA to play against schools like Tyner which can get their kids from anywhere in the entire Hamilton County?

 

 

VG(who was just asking if that is what you meant)