It's Time to Separate the Public and Private Schools

[throwdaslant]

[throwdaslant]

[reaction]

 

This thread should be titled 

It's Time to Separate the Boys from the Men

 

   

[Gambler]

I know Liscomb didn't complain, they simply out recruited you that season. For the rest of the public schools in 3a, I am sure the same opinion of Alcoa held true.

Not sure who liscomb is but that team that you refer to didn't have a starter or person that played significantly on the team that hadnt attended lipscomb since fifth grade. Also on offense the team returned 3 starters from the state championship team the year before and three on defense. You need to check your facts before you start making accusations. I challenge you to prove any wrong doing because I guarantee you won't find it. Unless you have proof I suggest you keep your mouth shut. Anyone that knows anything about Tennessee high school football knows the late legend glenn mccadams is the most honorable coach in state history and would never allow recruiting in any form to happen. You should be suspended from the board for this heresy. Also Alcoa got whipped on Saturday because they were to scared to play lipscomb on a rainy field the night before and waited to inform lipscomb until they were loading the bus. Alcoa was the team with the d1 prospects with the exception of Austin Rogers the wr that caught 5 td passes in the first half. Don't make excuses.

[Gambler]

Where to start. First off, I live in Overton Co home of Livingston Acd. I rooted for UHS being the top team in 8aa in 2013. Just like I will root for for UHS in state basketball tourn now that they are the last standing in 8aa. Would it have been a big accoumplishment for UHS to have beat Alcoa? Yes. Would it have changed the fact that pay to attend open zone schools have a huge advatage, nope. A multiplier for students gained would be perfect for this, just like in private schools. Tradition and coaching has a big influence in the program. So do athletes. I am all for parents being able to move and put their kid in any school they want. That's not the issue. The issue is the ones not moving and paying a fee to attend. I played at Riverdale. I know how the laxed zone rules aided us in late 80's and 90's. How ever good athlete in the whole county somehow wound up on our team. And some from out of county, still not sure how it was accouplished. But when more strict zones were enforced with the coming addition of Seigle and Blackman....Riverdale had to play by the same rules the other 5 schools did, and Rankin left town. Yea, Riverdale is still a good program...but not as dominant, but as a whole, the district is stronger for it.

Rankin left riverdale more than likely because it was time his program wouldn't have crumbled regardless. Also Alcoa could be losing some students due to open zone as well would be interesting to see the facts on that as well as how many players are playing football and making a difference. If they couldn't pay to play people would move into zones of good programs. This happens all over the state all the time. Honestly with the talent and tradition Alcoa has which they were really good before rankin the out of zone kids probably wouldn't matter they still would of been successful but the games may have been closer. Rankin took Alcoa to another level. Again if you build they will come or stay. Some programs have advantageous circumstances others don't Alcoa is one of those programs.

[UpperCumberlandMan]

Not sure who liscomb is but that team that you refer to didn't have a starter or person that played significantly on the team that hadnt attended lipscomb since fifth grade. Also on offense the team returned 3 starters from the state championship team the year before and three on defense. You need to check your facts before you start making accusations. I challenge you to prove any wrong doing because I guarantee you won't find it. Unless you have proof I suggest you keep your mouth shut. Anyone that knows anything about Tennessee high school football knows the late legend glenn mccadams is the most honorable coach in state history and would never allow recruiting in any form to happen. You should be suspended from the board for this heresy. Also Alcoa got whipped on Saturday because they were to scared to play lipscomb on a rainy field the night before and waited to inform lipscomb until they were loading the bus. Alcoa was the team with the d1 prospects with the exception of Austin Rogers the wr that caught 5 td passes in the first half. Don't make excuses.

not saying any team did anything wrong. Like I clearly said before, It is ok with the TSSAA and within the rules. Still does not make it a level playing field. That's what this thread is about. Not about the chest thumping on who's team was better. Just proving the point that even the mighty Alcoa gets stomped every now and then.

[throwdaslant]

Not sure who liscomb is but that team that you refer to didn't have a starter or person that played significantly on the team that hadnt attended lipscomb since fifth grade. Also on offense the team returned 3 starters from the state championship team the year before and three on defense. You need to check your facts before you start making accusations. I challenge you to prove any wrong doing because I guarantee you won't find it. Unless you have proof I suggest you keep your mouth shut. Anyone that knows anything about Tennessee high school football knows the late legend glenn mccadams is the most honorable coach in state history and would never allow recruiting in any form to happen. You should be suspended from the board for this heresy. Also Alcoa got whipped on Saturday because they were to scared to play lipscomb on a rainy field the night before and waited to inform lipscomb until they were loading the bus. Alcoa was the team with the d1 prospects with the exception of Austin Rogers the wr that caught 5 td passes in the first half. Don't make excuses.

That was a very good Lipscomb team! I was not looking forward to the rematch the following year. Was again a great game. I know Alcoa stepped it up from that year on. Would have been easy to make excuses, as so many do, however excuses don't win football games....

[QSouth89]

It appears that the only complaints about splitting are from the schools that have a hard time trying to compete.  One post in particular caught my attention,  I can't remember who posted it or quote what was said but the message the poster implied was that their team would win state titles if private schools and open zoned schools were gone.  I grew up in Chicago (in the 80's), played at a private school and competed against public schools and this was never an issue. The only out cry was facilities.  The public schools just couldn't afford the facilities that the private schools could.  However, the private schools couldn't build facilities without fundraising efforts and donations. There is this big misconception and myth that private schools have large stashes of cash just lying around to spend on sports and that's not the case. All of my kids attend Knoxville Catholic and while they play sports (I am a true believer that athletics builds character and teaches life lessons) I chose KCHS because 1. we are Catholic and 2. I wanted the them to get a very good education.  Catholic is a top 50 academic school.  As for athletics at KCHS, I know that all the upgrades to their facilities are donated.  If the kids in private schools were on scholarships the schools couldn't afford to operate.  The arch diocese couldn't operate or fund the schools if kids were going to any of these schools for free.  The arch diocese does offer financial aid through Catholic Charities but it's no where near enough to pay the full amount of a kids tuition because they rely on donations as well.  It's also need base.  There is no free ride. This is not college, this "leveling the playing field" is an asinine statement. I've also read about how privates hire coaches and pay them large amounts of money.  Teachers and coaches at Catholic make 20% less then the Knox County public school teachers. Instead of pointing fingers and blame at open zoned and private schools because you can't compete, develop your athletes instead of looking for excuses.  I've coached enough youth football and AAU basketball to know that ALL schools, be it public or private do target the middle school talent and try to sway that kid to attend their school either with boosters, former players, or other kids.  Look at the newspaper articles posted on CoachT, coaches are fired every year for not winning.  Some coaches do play with the hand they are dealt with some develop their kids and compete.  None of the Knox County middle schools (Webb and Grace are the exception) have middle school football.  They rely on the youth football teams through parks and recs to develop their kids.  Example: all the communities and high schools have a youth program that starts from 2nd grade on to 8th grade.  I coached in the Catholic Youth Program and by the time our kids got to 8th grade they were encouraged to go play for the high school team that they planned on going to.  Some chose to stay and play with us because they had always played on our team. Those 8th graders still went on to their base schools,Bearden, Hardin valley, West, etc.  The reality is you are going to have schools (private and public) that do it the right way and schools that do it the "quick' way. A true competitor wants to play the best.  There is no easy road to a championship, oh there is.... its called splitting the private and open zoned schools.  Watered down titles are always a good thing.

Edited March 7, 2014 by QSouth89

[redandblack63]

It appears that the only complaints about splitting are from the schools that have a hard time trying to compete. One post in particular caught my attention, I can't remember who posted it or quote what was said but the message the poster implied was that their team would win state titles if private schools and open zoned schools were gone. I grew up in Chicago (in the 80's), played at a private school and competed against public schools and this was never an issue. The only out cry was facilities. The public schools just couldn't afford the facilities that the private schools could. However, the private schools couldn't build facilities without fundraising efforts and donations. There is this big misconception and myth that private schools have large stashes of cash just lying around to spend on sports and that's not the case. All of my kids attend Knoxville Catholic and while they play sports (I am a true believer that athletics builds character and teaches life lessons) I chose KCHS because 1. we are Catholic and 2. I wanted the them to get a very good education. Catholic is a top 50 academic school. As for athletics at KCHS, I know that all the upgrades to their facilities are donated. If the kids in private schools were on scholarships the schools couldn't afford to operate. The arch diocese couldn't operate or fund the schools if kids were going to any of these schools for free. The arch diocese does offer financial aid through Catholic Charities but it's no where near enough to pay the full amount of a kids tuition because they rely on donations as well. It's also need base. There is no free ride. This is not college, this "leveling the playing field" is an asinine statement. I've also read about how privates hire coaches and pay them large amounts of money. Teachers and coaches at Catholic make 20% less then the Knox County public school teachers. Instead of pointing fingers and blame at open zoned and private schools because you can't compete, develop your athletes instead of looking for excuses. I've coached enough youth football and AAU basketball to know that ALL schools, be it public or private do target the middle school talent and try to sway that kid to attend their school either with boosters, former players, or other kids. Look at the newspaper articles posted on CoachT, coaches are fired every year for not winning. Some coaches do play with the hand they are dealt with some develop their kids and compete. None of the Knox County middle schools (Webb and Grace are the exception) have middle school football. They rely on the youth football teams through parks and recs to develop their kids. Example: all the communities and high schools have a youth program that starts from 2nd grade on to 8th grade. I coached in the Catholic Youth Program and by the time our kids got to 8th grade they were encouraged to go play for the high school team that they planned on going to. Some chose to stay and play with us because they had always played on our team. Those 8th graders still went on to their base schools,Bearden, Hardin valley, West, etc. The reality is you are going to have schools (private and public) that do it the right way and schools that do it the "quick' way. A true competitor wants to play the best. There is no easy road to a championship, oh there is.... its called splitting the private and open zoned schools. Watered down titles are always a good thing.

I agree with most things you say. You made a point that catholic offered financial assistance based on need. If individuals are getting financial aide at KCHS the they should be playing in DII. If I understand the rules. I think many folks get the perception athletes are recruited when their economic situation isn't consistent with individuals who could afford the yearly tuition at a private school. In some cases the tuition surpasses the annual income of those families. Now if the Catholic Church provides them with financial aide that would be a violation. The split IMO would just make things more clear.

[QSouth89]

I agree with most things you say. You made a point that catholic offered financial assistance based on need. If individuals are getting financial aide at KCHS the they should be playing in DII. If I understand the rules. I think many folks get the perception athletes are recruited when their economic situation isn't consistent with individuals who could afford the yearly tuition at a private school. In some cases the tuition surpasses the annual income of those families. Now if the Catholic Church provides them with financial aide that would be a violation. The split IMO would just make things more clear.

I should have been a little bit more clear.  Financial aid isn't JUST for athletes. I was using Catholic as an example.  What little assistance that Catholic Charities gives is for Catholic students only who can't afford the full  tuition.  Catholic Charities isn't giving aid to just athletes. Also you have to apply for aid, and as a parent of two Catholic High School students, we've been rejected for assistance so the kids mom and I are paying tuition with out assistance. When I was in high school in Chicago, Catholic Charities operated in the same manner and my mother was turned down for assistance.  Just because you apply doesn't mean you're getting help with your tuition. Catholic's tuition is 8,000 for catholic students and almost 10,000 non-catholic students. Catholic Charities gives out maybe a 1,000 to 2,000 in assistance, IF that much. You're still looking at 6,000 plus athletic fees which is $250, and books. Keep in mind this is just for the Catholic students and the Catholic athletes.  Non Catholic students and athletes don't get that or assistance, they pay the full amount. The "financial aid" that KCHS gives is allowing monthly payments instead of paying one lump sum at the beginning of the school year. Something to reach for I guess.  If Catholic and Notre Dame were relying on help from the church then the athletic programs at both schools would be very bare.

[Indian]

The athletes should not get any assistance and still be playing Division I.

[UpperCumberlandMan]

It appears that the only complaints about splitting are from the schools that have a hard time trying to compete. One post in particular caught my attention, I can't remember who posted it or quote what was said but the message the poster implied was that their team would win state titles if private schools and open zoned schools were gone. I grew up in Chicago (in the 80's), played at a private school and competed against public schools and this was never an issue. The only out cry was facilities. The public schools just couldn't afford the facilities that the private schools could. However, the private schools couldn't build facilities without fundraising efforts and donations. There is this big misconception and myth that private schools have large stashes of cash just lying around to spend on sports and that's not the case. All of my kids attend Knoxville Catholic and while they play sports (I am a true believer that athletics builds character and teaches life lessons) I chose KCHS because 1. we are Catholic and 2. I wanted the them to get a very good education. Catholic is a top 50 academic school. As for athletics at KCHS, I know that all the upgrades to their facilities are donated. If the kids in private schools were on scholarships the schools couldn't afford to operate. The arch diocese couldn't operate or fund the schools if kids were going to any of these schools for free. The arch diocese does offer financial aid through Catholic Charities but it's no where near enough to pay the full amount of a kids tuition because they rely on donations as well. It's also need base. There is no free ride. This is not college, this "leveling the playing field" is an asinine statement. I've also read about how privates hire coaches and pay them large amounts of money. Teachers and coaches at Catholic make 20% less then the Knox County public school teachers. Instead of pointing fingers and blame at open zoned and private schools because you can't compete, develop your athletes instead of looking for excuses. I've coached enough youth football and AAU basketball to know that ALL schools, be it public or private do target the middle school talent and try to sway that kid to attend their school either with boosters, former players, or other kids. Look at the newspaper articles posted on CoachT, coaches are fired every year for not winning. Some coaches do play with the hand they are dealt with some develop their kids and compete. None of the Knox County middle schools (Webb and Grace are the exception) have middle school football. They rely on the youth football teams through parks and recs to develop their kids. Example: all the communities and high schools have a youth program that starts from 2nd grade on to 8th grade. I coached in the Catholic Youth Program and by the time our kids got to 8th grade they were encouraged to go play for the high school team that they planned on going to. Some chose to stay and play with us because they had always played on our team. Those 8th graders still went on to their base schools,Bearden, Hardin valley, West, etc. The reality is you are going to have schools (private and public) that do it the right way and schools that do it the "quick' way. A true competitor wants to play the best. There is no easy road to a championship, oh there is.... its called splitting the private and open zoned schools. Watered down titles are always a good thing.

money is just one issue. I am sure most of the facilities at private schools are donated or raised by parents. But check out Enworths facilities say compared to Pearl Cohn, or CAK compared to Austin East. Typically private school parents and boosters are a little higher up the pay scale on average than public school parents.Develope talent? Take a kid like Antonio Richardson, developed by Pearl Cohn, then as a sophmore moves over and plays for Ensworth. That's his and his parents choice. But you can't ask a public school in Knoxville that has to play with kids in a certin zone,after the top athelets are picked threw, to compete with a private school like CAK who can simply get the athletes they need from virtually anywhere his parents are willing to drive in from and pay the tuition. Let the privates play privates. Seperate two divisions in privates based on finicial aide and problem is fixed, end of story. On the public side, TSSAA can't set zones for schools. They can simply count attendence yearly and set classes. If your school has a pay to attend public access..simply put a multiplier on the portion of paying students. Problem solved, end of story. Its not that hard folks.